(revised 09/30/13)
Apparently there is some confusion as to whether three day retreats like “Emmaus Walk” and “Tres Dias” are heretical. I believe they are. Here we are going to look mainly at Tres Dias, but below you will find that Emmaus Walk and Tres Dias came from the same origin. These and other types of three day retreats are all part of the Three Day Movement, according to a Wikipedia article.
Note – below I have emphasized certain points by bolding, and inserted comments in [brackets].
The Wikipedia article on Tres dias does not make mention of heretical teachings. Yet, The Cutting Edge website gives a different picture:
These “total immersion experiences” that Rome uses to indoctrinate her followers has found its way into the Southern Baptists as well through the Tres dias. The Cursillo Movement, which originated in the Roman Catholic church and sprung out of Focolare, is a three-day learning, sharing experience of living in a Christian community. Tres dias is one of three major spiritual renewal movements that emerged from the Cursillo Movement. In an article by Todd Starnes, he tells of one Baptist preacher, Paul Mason’s concerns:
“When several members of a Georgia Baptist church were invited to attend a weekend of spiritual renewal, their pastor, Paul Mason, didn’t give it a second thought. After all, “Tres dias” (Spanish for three days) sounded like it was a normal, weekend getaway sponsored by a mainline religious denomination. But a few months after they returned from the retreat, Mason realized he had a problem on his hands at Central Baptist Church, Douglasville. ‘When I asked them how the retreat went, they told me it was a secret. They couldn’t talk about what happened during the weekend,’ he said. Mason noticed that couples who had attended the Tres dias retreat were secretly inviting other couples to attend the program. After the church’s Sunday school superintendent went to the retreat, he abruptly resigned his church position without reason. And within six months, Mason said the couples who had initially attended Tres dias completely ostracized themselves from the congregation. The result, Mason said, was a divided church. Determined to learn all he could about Tres dias, Mason uncovered some unsettling information about a spiritual movement that is raising concern in the Southern Baptist Convention. Davis said a number of Southern Baptist churches have contacted his office with stories of problems resulting from the retreats. ‘It’s very strange. Some church members have done extreme things, selling possessions, becoming secretive. It’s almost like the weekend retreat has become the focus of their spiritual lives.’ George Osment, a lay leader at First Baptist Church, Scottsboro, Tenn., said the spiritual intensity is so great that leaders of one Tres dias retreat refused to allow a camper to leave. ‘This person wanted to go home but they wouldn’t let him. He saw what was going on and wanted to leave,’ Osment said. ‘They formed a circle around him and prayed over him.’ Osment said the secrecy surrounding the retreat has caused division in their congregation. ‘It’s very sad,’ he said. Said Davis: ‘Anything that involves a measure of secrecy sends up a red flag. There’s no need for anybody in a Christian church to keep anything secret.’”
And apparently Bro. David Cloud discussed this, in an article which I could no longer locate on his website. I am reposting the article by Bro. Cloud on this, which I found here, prefaced by an introductory comment as follows:
Below is an article by David Cloud I found a few years back. Unfortunately I didn’t save the link. Cursillo movements have been popular in Georgia since the 90s. “Walk to Emmaus” is part of the Cursillo movement and is usually associated with Methodist churches although people from various denominations attend. Tres Dias is another one.
Beware Of Ecumenical Weekend Retreat Movements
By David Cloud
Weekend retreats that emphasize spiritual renewal are becoming increasingly popular with church members, but believers must beware of the teachings and fellowships that are often experienced at such meetings. While many Christians with good intentions may think a renewal weekend will help their Christian walk and witness, many such weekend retreats are Charismatic and ecumenical in nature. Three movements that have become popular of late are Tres Dias, The Emmaus Walk and Chrysalis (aimed at teenagers). These retreat movements have emerged from the Roman Catholic Church’s Cursillo Movement and are now often sponsored by mainline denominations. The Tres Dias Movement, which broke off from a United Methodist Cursillo Movement in the 1980’s and is now nondenominational, describes itself in the following manner: “Christian, ecumenical, similar to the Cursillo movements, a Christian support group movement, a prayer/study/action small group movement.”
Recently, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) warned its members to be wary of the Cursillo-type movements, saying that such movements are secretive and divisive. SBC’s Tal Davis told Baptist Press that the focus of those who attend the Tres Dias weekend retreats “is no longer on the gospel or evangelism, rather the experience they’ve had” (BP, 12-29-99). According to Baptist Press, Davis has heard from a number of SBC churches who have reported problems as a result of the retreats. “Some church members have done extreme things, selling possessions, becoming secretive. It’s almost like the weekend retreat has become the focus of their spiritual lives,” Davis said. Paul Mason, pastor of Central Baptist Church (SBC) in Douglasville, Georgia, said those within his church who attended the retreat were secretly inviting others to attend. When he asked about the retreat, those who attended told him it was a secret and that they could not discuss what happened during the weekend of the retreat.
Mason noted that “one area of concern is the potential for participants to manifest Charismatic tendencies” (BP, 12-29-99). Defenders of the Tres Dias and other Cursillo-type movements reject the notion that these movements are Charismatic and secretive. Wilson Burton, Jr., a member of a Church of Christ congregation and a member of Tres Dias’ international board, told Baptist Press that even though some who attend the retreats experience Charismatic manifestations ranging from laughter to healing, Tres Dias is not Charismatic. “It is an encounter with the Holy Spirit,” Burton said. “The ministry is ecumenical in nature and actively seeks the participation of persons from all Christian denominations” (BP, 1-18-00). He also told Baptist Press that Tres Dias does not preach one theology but rather stresses what all denominations hold in common.
A careful look at the orientation, history and essentials of the Tres Dias movement, and other Cursillo-type retreat movements, reveals that such movements are unashamedly ecumenical in scope. One Baptist Press article noted that “Baptist, Lutheran, Church of God or Catholics, among others, may be represented on any given weekend” (BP, 1-18-00). Likewise, such retreats are often dominated by Charismatics within each of the denominations. No Bible-believing Fundamentalist should have any part of such a fellowship.
FOR FURTHER READING
Christian discernment articles exposing Cursillo, Tres Dias, etc.
The Cursillo movement is much larger than Tres Dias and Emmaus Walk, which are listed under Analogous Retreats in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursillo
And this article is also very helpful and revealing. It is about DeColores, which also falls under the Cursillo movement: http://www.michianachristianembassy.com/web_documents/decolores-many_colors__many_questions.pdf
Todd Starnes, NAMB official cautions churches to be wary of renewal weekends (Dec 29, 1999)
Walk to Emmaus and Churches of Christ
Tres Dias (includes links at the bottom to many additional articles)
I have read several of these articles on this movement, and other than the mysterious aspect, and the secretive aspects, I have seen nothing from the Bible that compels me to believe it is evil, or that one would lose their salvation by attending. it sounds like you’re just paranoid to me. Can you provide any actual Biblical references to back up the notion that it is evil? You say that they have Catholic type practices and beliefs, yet you neglect to mention which ones. You also neglect to note that most protestants believe in the Trinity (I do not completely) and that the cross is to be venerated to some degree, not worshiped, but held as an example of the work Jesus did.
Greetings, Matt. Thanks for the feedback to my blog about Tres Dias. I could respond to various comments here, but I will respond to just one point here due to limited time at the moment. I think my biggest concern is what you typed almost as an afterthought: that you “do not completely” believe in the Trinity. (I’m a bit puzzled – how do you believe partly in the Trinity?) As far as I know, every “born again” Christian creed, from the New Testament on, has stated the Trinity as one of their key doctrines. I take a hard line on this (after knowing Oneness Pentecostals for years, then doing some research): like many ministries, I believe a person who does not believe in the Trinity cannot be a born again Christian.
Also, the following article discusses, among other things, the way in which Oneness Pentecostals have a unique view of how to become born again: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/opgospel.html. This position obviously differs from the traditional Protestant view of how to become born again (I can further detail “the traditional Protestant view of how to become born again” if you wish.)
I know I have strayed from the original topic of this blog. But I felt it was important to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity – as well as how to become born again. God bless you – Dave
P.S.: I do hope to respond to your other comments when I get a chance.
Well, for one thing, the Trinity is not in the Bible. There is no doctrine that states that man must see God as the Trinity, or that he must understand God’s nature to be saved. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus, not by declaring that God is a 3 person being that somehow is one God. There is also the fact that a person is a fully realized, separate and self willed individual, who can act as a free agent and do things that go against the wishes of their peers. If God were 3 persons, He would have to be 3 gods. since a person is a fully realized and separate individual. Jesus tells us he can do nothing apart from the will of the Father, so He is not a completely self realized individual, separate from the whole. Jesus is God, as is the Father, but to suggest that the two are “people” or persons would suggest that there is a possibility of God being divided, or of one part of God disobeying the other part(s). It amazes me that so many believe in this doctrine blindly, with little if any thought or study on the matter, especially since it was not even a recognized doctrine for the first 300 or more years of the church, and when it was introduced, it was introduced by a Catholic bishop (maybe a monk?). So, we are supposed to just believe it, because some guy 1,700 years ago said so, and anyone who questions it or sees the issue in a slightly different way is branded as a heretic, or worse. I also find it interesting that the first thing people say when they hear me say I am not a strict Trinitarian is “well, oneness Pentacostalism is heresy” etc as if that were the only other option to believe. I believe the Bible, not some monk, not some tradition and not some denominational standpoint, and frankly, the Bible when examined as a whole leaves MANY questions about the Trinity. For instance, in Genesis 18, we are told that “The Lord” i.e. God, Jehovah, etc. came to Abraham at Mamre in a physical form, eating, drinking an speaking with Abraham. Now, the first thing that pops into the head of the die hard Trinitarian is “well, that must have been a “pre incarnate” Jesus”. There is nothing in any portion of the Bible that would lead us to believe that this was Jesus at all. The very term “preincarnate” suggests that the being appearing before Abraham was not incarnate, i.e. flesh, yet we see that He eats, drinks and has audible conversations with both Abraham and Sarah! He was incarnate! So, this being would have to constitute a 4th person in the Trinity, if we follow the path laid out to us by that monk 1,700 years ago, because as I stated, nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that being was Jesus, and in fact, most Christians I know understand the name Jehovah to be directly connected to The Father. So, that was just as likely to be The Father, as The Word, or The Son. The thing that bugs me most is not that people view God this way, or that, but that it is stated by well meaning but ignorant people who are supposed to be leading the lost to Jesus that in order to be saved, one must embrace this doctrine, wholeheartedly without question or deviation to be saved. That is nigh unto blasphemy, and is definitely a hindrance to the spread of the gospel. Thanks, Matt
Thanks for the feedback, Matt – lots to digest. As far as the word Trinity not being in the Bible, you are right. But I found this excerpt that addresses the situation:
“The above is also true of the charge that Trinitarians are in error because non-biblical words like ‘Trinity’ are used to explain their position when speaking of God. Although this kind of reasoning is popular in non-Trinitarian circles it cannot be consistently sustained. Oneness believers, like Trinitarians, also employ unbiblical words to express their beliefs. Words like ‘millennium’, ‘theocracy’, and ‘incarnation’ are often used but not found in the Bible. 25 This, however, does not mean that what these words seek to express is untrue; they are simply used in such a way to better express and explain one’s position. The same can also be said with Trinitarian terminology. 26”
Source: http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/oneness.htm
Note – even the word “Bible” is not found in the Bible 🙂
Regarding your comment: “Jesus is God, as is the Father, but to suggest that the two are “people” or persons would suggest that there is a possibility of God being divided, or of one part of God disobeying the other part(s).”
I would prefer to use the phrase “three members of the Trinity”, rather than “three persons”.
There are several hints in the Bible that disobedience was a possibility:
1) Satan tempted our Lord Jesus Christ three times in the wilderness. This would lead me to believe that Christ could have indeed given in to Satan’s temptations, thus disobeying His Father. (Matt. 4:1-11)
2) In the Garden of Gethsemane: “Jesus prayed, And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt” (Matt. 26:39) Again, it appears here that Jesus Christ could have chosen to do His will not the Father’s will, thus disobeying the Father.
And here is an article about Jesus Christ’s obedience to the Father: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n1/christ-obedience
Regarding your statement above: “I also find it interesting that the first thing people say when they hear me say I am not a strict Trinitarian is “well, oneness Pentacostalism is heresy” etc as if that were the only other option to believe.” Is there a book or article or website you can point me to, that describes your position on the Trinity? (That would help me understand more clearly where you’re coming from.) Or is your position a “hybrid” position that you came up with on your own? If so, what is it about Oneness Pentecostal beliefs that you would REJECT? I’m just curious. So far it seems everything you’ve stated regarding a Trinity doctrine lines up with Oneness Pentecostal beliefs.
There are various instances in the Old Testament where it seems God appeared in human form. Here are several off the top of my head:
1) God walked in the Garden with Adam
2) As you mentioned, many believe God appeared to Abraham in human form
3) A fourth man appeared in the fiery furnace
I agree, these are difficult passages to understand when it comes to the Trinity. But I believe there also many passages in the Bible that definitely point to a Trinity. I think we just have to accept that, as far as possible appearances of God in the Old Testament, this is just one of the many things we will not understand until we get to Heaven.
As I’m sure you’re aware, there are a number of passages in the Bible that refer the the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the third member of the Trinity], whom the Father [the first member] will send in my name [the second member], he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26).
As far as having to believe in the Trinity to be a born again Christian, I questioned this at first as well. But many Christians have written Internet articles maintaining this is indeed the case (I can’t find the articles at the moment). I would maintain that:
1) One of the criteria to become born again: one must believe that Jesus (the second member of the Trinity) is God (i.e. divine, part of the Trinity). (Cults do not believe Jesus is God.)
2) Another one of the criteria to become born again: one must believe that Jesus (the second member of the Trinity) is the only begotten of the Father (the first member) by the Holy Spirit (the third member)(John 3:16, Luke 1:35). (Cults do not believe Jesus is the Son of God.)
(There are other criteria as well for becoming born again, such as repenting of one’s sinful life, making a 180 degree turn from sin to Christ, accepting Him sincerely as Saviour.)
Other passages that seem to show a belief in the Trinity is necessary to become born again:
“Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me [the second member of the Trinity], believeth not on me, but on him that sent me” [the first member of the Trinity] (John 12:44).
Another passage: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God [the first member of the Trinity] hath raised him [the second member of the Trinity] from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (Rom. 10:9).
Well that’s it for now. God bless you – Dave
Re: Luke 12—The secrecy aspect to attract believers and the man-made trinkets which are given to Tres Dias attendees at the so-called “renewal retreat” have symbolic accomplishments known by Tres Dias attendees only is a red flag. I believe nothing concerning Jesus Christ should be shrouded in secrecy and lastly, why isn’t it open enrollment instead of by invitation only? My church which has open invitation, The Cross and witnessing about what I learn about Jesus and biblical events at church is sufficient. At our church there is no entry fee. Beware as Satan is the master deceiver!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Dr. J
You are certainly right that nothing concerning Jesus should be “shrouded” in mystery. Of course God is always mystery, else He would not be God at all. It is the shrouding that is problematic. Why would anyone want to “shroud” Jesus. Well the only thing that makes any sense to me is that they would do so because there is something abut Him they do not want others to see. I think this springs from an attitude that is also problematic. It is the attitude that Jesus is “mine.” Well, of course He is. That is His entire raison d’etre! The shrouding is a problem because people want to “hold on to Him” Like Mary after the Resurrection, or like the disciples who kept the little children away, or even the Pharisees who did not want Him hanging out with sinners. Jesus is mine and His heart burns for me to give Him away. That really is the purpose of the Cursillo mentality. The problem is that this mentality is carried around in human heads. We are a fallen race, and so very often try to pick ourselves up rather than surrender to the one and only true picker upper, Jesus, our Lord! So it is not surprising that so many who are doing their best to use this good method, fall a little short in the implementation! I suggest the right attitude is to Pray, pray, pray, and then pray some more while sharing Jesus with one another as much as we can. Then our personal gift of grace might help overcome some of the troubles caused by weaker people…just as their gifts can help overcome our own many faults and short-comings. In the end Truth is Truth. It is not Truth because I believe it. It is truth because it is Truth. God is a little bit bigger than all of us put together.
Charley
Would that be Catholic teachings like the Trinity? What about Baptist churches which allow Free masonry to flourish, or which have openly gay choir directors? I feel strange about this movement too, and I see that people I know who get into it seem to substitute Tres Dias for regular church, but evil? Apostate? Hmmmm…. Not convinced….
It sounds like the reason you believe Tres Dias is heretical is because people who have attended have come back and have been secretive, etc. about the weekend. I can tell you that I am involved in a Tres Dias community, and our community emphasizes the importance to NOT say that to people who haven’t gone through a weekend. I will tell you why this is said, though. There are very neat and intentional events and processes put in place throughout the weekend. One of the things that makes these parts so impactful is that the individuals going through the weekend aren’t expecting them, so they are a blessing and a surprise. I’m clearly being vague, because I don’t want to give these things away. As my wife was nursing our baby when I went through, it was many months after I went through before she was able to. I shared a lot of what went on during the weekend, but just left out some of these parts. The fact that I just didn’t share them, allowed her to be surprised and blessed just like I was. Had she known they were coming, they would no doubt have had a lesser impact on her.
To let you know where I personally come from, I am a conservative, Calvinistic(ish), pre-millennial, people-loving, redeemed by the blood of Christ, sinner. I’m not Charismatic, though I know some who are in my community. The focus of these weekends are to encourage other believers to live their lives in God’s grace and redemption, thereby being better leaders in their own families, churches and work. This isn’t a weekend to teach doctrine or to even bring divisive doctrines into the discussions. The weekend is to lovingly call brothers and sisters to repentance of their sins and to live a life of obedience in all areas of their lives.
Hope this makes sense!
Jeremy
Thanks for the feedback, Jeremy. To your comment, “yes and no.” Yes, I am concerned about the secrecy of these weekend retreats. But no, that is not my primary concern. My primary concern is that they seem to be indoctrinating people into an ecumenical mindset sympathetic to Catholicism.
Several questions. 1) Do you think it is okay to associate with Roman Catholics? 2) Do you believe there are Roman Catholics that are born again? Personally, my answer to both questions is an emphatic “no”.
God bless you – Dave
This is an extremely bigoted view for someone who calls himself a Christian. That is not for you to judge!
Why would anyone not want to be associated with a Roman Catholic? Do we carry the plague? What does it mean to “be born again”? As long as we are alive and human, we will forever commit sins, whether venial or mortal. We are imperfect beings on a journey of perfection because we are called to be holy as our Father in heaven is holy. Therefore, we are always in need of God’s forgiveness and grace. Each time we seek his forgiveness and receive his grace we are reborn, reconciled to his love through Jesus, Who hung on a cross for our redemption.
St Paul tells us that that it is in our weakness that He is made strong.
Ecumenism is a step in the right direction for all Christians since Jesus prayed to the Father that all will be one just as He and the Father are one. Therefore, the divisiveness that you appear to be preaching is completely contrary to what our Saviour desires for His redeemed. We are — all of us — children of God no matter our denomination. Let there be love and respect shared amongst us no matter our faith beliefs.
Dave,
I’m glad the “secretive pieces” isn’t the main issue with you, because again, I can assure there’s nothing heretical (or even doctrinal) with them. So far as the Roman Catholic Roots, Tres Dias began when a protestant attended the catholic Crusillo weekend. This was a protestant who was invited by a friend. After his weekend, he saw how it could be a blessing to have a similar weekend as he had just attended, but for protestants. So yes, the very reason there is a tres dias weekend is because someone attended the catholic event and wanted to create a similar weekend. The whole reason for the change was because of the disagreements with the catholic theology!
To answer your questions, I would dare say that most people attending the weekend would agree that the sacraments are NOT the means by which the grace of God is administered to us. They would agree that the Catholic teachings on justification, sanctification, forgiveness, etc are not biblical (that’s why they aren’t catholic, but protestants).
I think that is the heart of what you are looking for. So far as answering your two questions, first, I would say that 2) If a catholic believes the theology of the catholic church, they are not born again. 1) Is it ok to associate with catholics? Let me pose a question back to you in return. Is it ok to associate with ANY unbeliever? Just read the final verses of Jude, how we are to have mercy on some who are doubting, on others, snatching them out of the fire, and on some, hating even the garments defiled by the flesh. My question to you is not “Is it ok to associate with catholics?”, but rather, can you show me anywhere in scripture where you are commanded to avoid interactions with the unbelieving world? We are commanded to not allow false teachers into our home, but this is completely unrelated!
The Tres Dias Weekend is a weekend for born again believers to attend to grow in their walk. It started when someone attended a catholic weekend, and left saying, it’s a shame there isn’t a similar weekend with correct theology (as opposed to catholic). Tres Dias was formed, and God uses the weekend to change lives by teaching about the grace of God! Catholic theology isn’t taught, catholic tradition isn’t taught. I think the closest thing to catholic practices that can be found in the communities I’m involved in is that when we take communion, we dip the bread in the JUICE (not wine) rather than drinking it out of a plastic shot glass.
I truly believe that you have an incorrect view of either 1-what happens on a tres dias weekend or 2-the role of the believer in relation the the lost of the world. I believe your heart is in the right place, but I would also say that I believe the heart is deceitfully wicked, and sometimes, a well-intended heart can be wrong (nothing but love in what I said!).
I attend Tres Dias I am true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. Read Luke 24: 13-35 Allowing no one to discuss the weekend allows everyone to HAVE FUN not evil or cult like. Sorry for thoses who do not understand the joy, FUN, of the weekend.
Sandra, thanks for the feedback. The secrecy is just part of the problem (and yes, I still think it’s a problem). Some of my other areas of concern:
1) The retreats originated with Roman Catholicism.
2) The retreats do not stress the need to accept Christ as Saviour and Lord/get saved/become born again.
3) The retreats are ecumenical – Catholics, Protestants, born again, not born again, whoever.
4) The retreats include contemplative spirituality aka Spiritual Formation (as taught by Richard Foster, Dallas Willard and others).
God bless you – Dave
Dave,
As I posted above, let me follow up your comments:
1) yes, it originated from a protestant attending a roman catholic weekend and seeing how such a weekend would be beneficial to the protestant church, so CHANGED it. (Heard of Luther, Huss, etc? Came out of the catholic church).
2) The retreats are for believers, just as church services are for believers. The last weekend I served on, I had the opportunity to share the gospel with an individual who had a “salvation experience” in the past, but who clearly didn’t understand the gospel. Needless to say, he received Christ and there was great celebration among all people attending!
3) They are ecumenical, in that they are for professing believers. There are undoubtedly unbelievers, just as there are unbelievers sitting beside you in church…Matthew 7, brother. Catholics may attend, but the doctrines are protestant, not catholic.
4) Not familiar with what exactly you mean or these authors, so I won’t address it. I can assume I know what you’re referring to, and I would agree that there can be a danger in ANY Bible study where you sit around, read a verse and say, “What does this mean to you?”.
Jeremy, good thoughts in both of your posts.
I am puzzled, however, by your saying Tres Dias and other Protestant oriented retreats consist of many believers. Question – are you defining “believers” as “born again” believers? I did not see you use the term “born again”.
Frankly, the born again believers I fellowship with (what most people call “fundamentalists”) would not want to attend weekend retreats that “originated” in Roman Catholicism. Question: among the people that attend, what denominations do most of them belong to? I get the impression that most attenders belong to mainline/liberal denominations in the National Council of Churches. See this list of member denominations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Council_of_Churches_members
It’s common knowledge that, among NCC denominations, none of them hold to “born again” fundamentalist theology.
Having said the above, I have read that some traditionally “born again” denominations are starting to get involved in these types of weekends – the Southern Baptists for example. I’m guessing this involvement by various “born again” denominations is increasing – unfortunately, in my opinion.
Anyway, thanks for your comments. I do appreciate your kind, gracious writing style (as well as the kind language of other commenters). I realize that my responses may sound narrowed minded and not nearly as gracious as the comments of my blog readers. I’m working on balancing my strong doctrinal views with gracious, tactful language. Hope that makes sense.
God bless you – Dave
P.S.: I would not attend such weekends because they are ecumenical (just as I would not attend any more Billy Graham crusades, any more Promise Keepers events, or any other gathering that treats NCC members, Catholics, Mormons, etc. as fellow Christians).
Concerning the weekends, I would not feel comfortable “extending the right hand of fellowship” to people whom I do not consider to be true, born again Christians (whether they be Protestant or Catholic). Especially since the weekend costs $250 (or so I’ve heard). On the other hand, I would have no problem sitting down with “ecumenical” people on a park bench, in a restaurant, etc. and sharing what I believe. Namely, a “neutral place”. If I attended a weekend I would feel I was endorsing it.
Also – as I mentioned in a previous comment, my wife grew up Roman Catholic and has relatives who are still RC. And I have some RC friends. So I have no animosity towards RC people personally – I just do not agree with RC doctrines.
Dave,
When I write, you could substitute “believer” with one who has repented of theirs sins and made a profession of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins (insert Rom 10:9-10). To help you understand my background, I come out of a “good ol’ Southern Baptist” family, but today, would be most closely understood as a mix of The Master’s Seminary and Dallas Seminary theology (and in some circles, people would say the two can’t mix…oh well!) Call me reformed, if you like…I prefer “conservative Christian” (theologically conservative, not just socially).
I absolutely understand where you are coming from. In the community I am most involved in, Southern Baptist churches and Bible Churches make up about 80% of the attendees. Of the people involved, I would say a large majority would be able to join hand-in-hand with me to share the gospel with an unbeliever and we would be on the same page throughout.
Being involved in Tres Dias, let me venture a guess as to how you would probably respond were you to attend in my community. I believe that after it was all said and done, your concerns would probably be 1% the secrecy, 2 % the catholic traditions, and 96% the ecumenical issue (I’ll leave 1% for poor food). Tres Dias is overtly ecumenical. Groups and churches I have been involved with in the past have been very cautious about who they get involved with in ministry in the name of “ecumenicalism is evil”. Tres Dias is intentionally ecumenical, and part of the by-laws specifies that no more than 1/3 of the attendees of a weekend can come from any one congregation. That being said, the MESSAGE of the weekend is one that John MacArthur, Sproul, Dever, Piper as well as McLaren, and…pick your charismatic or “easy believism” pastors… would all agree on: IN RESPONSE TO THE GRACE OF GOD IN YOUR LIFE, THE BELIEVER IS TO LIVE A PIOUS LIFE, ROOTED IN DAILY, PERSONAL BIBLE STUDY AND SERVE IN YOUR LOCAL BODY AND THE WORLD AROUND YOU.
Sure, individuals’ theology comes out on occasion, and at times I hear the “God told me…”, but I’m fine with that. Am I fine with their theology, their view of the sufficiency of scripture? No! Am I fine with fellowshipping with a fellow, born again believer, encouraging each other to live godly lives in the light of God’s grace? Absolutely!
I understand people’s concerns with ecumenical movements, but I KNOW there are times when we choose to not fellowship with other believers because we disagree on eschatological or doctrinal points that are critical, but not essential to a saving faith. BUT…the church will always be that way…as a matter of fact, Paul uses this very idea as a way of saying we (the members of the church) are to plan on serving for the church’s sake? …until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. (Eph. 4:13). He’s using the fact that there will never be complete unit of the faith and of the knowledge of Christ to say we are to serve until that comes about. Does this mean we don’t strive for that or that we ignore it? No! But it does let me know that there ARE born again believers who will disagree with me theologically, and I’m very cautious before I’m not going to show love or to break fellowship with other believers.
In my opinion, breaking from ecumenical movements is important when the message is “it doesn’t matter what you believe, because we say that’s just as valid as any other theology or thought.” On the other hand breaking from fellowshipping with other born again believers is dangerous, particularly when what you’re breaking from HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DOCTRINE.
All that to say, I believe this area is where your valid concern should be (even over the catholic roots, as these roots don’t present itself in the weekend…I won’t re-address this). So…here’s my response to your concern that you haven’t raised yet. I hope this was a good read! I truly have enjoyed conversing with you!
For the pricing, it absolutely depends on the expenses needed to run a weekend. I know of a community that is $100% free, as a facility and dining is provided for through a SECULAR organization that has the space and cafeteria available. The head of the organization (who I’m not sure is even churched) saw the impact of the people who attended the weekend in his employees and offered the facilities in response. (Incidentally, this is because the emphasis of the weekend is to go back and live godly lives of holiness, biblical study, and service in your church and world.). Other communities charge between $150 and $180 to attend or serve on a weekend…it all depends on the cost of running a weekend.
Jeremy, lots of good points as usual. You hit the nail on the head regarding one of my major concerns with Tres Dias and other such weekends – ecumenism.
I’m glad to hear you describe yourself as a born again believer. And you made an interesting point that some born again believers do attend these weekends. I still have a problem with Tres Dias, though, in spite of this (see below).
I’ve “narrowed” my position on ecumenism over the years. Growing up, my family and my denomination (Ohio Yearly Meeting of the Evangelical Friends, now EFC-ER) actively supported Billy Graham crusades. I didn’t realize until recent years that the Billy Graham crusades became ecumenical years before, in 1957, encouraging mainline denominations to become involved. (I could give other examples of ventures we were involved in that I learned recently were actually ecumenical – the Billy Graham crusades is the best known example.)
Readers may ask, what exactly is wrong with ecumenical ventures? Let’s take a look at the fruit. Many ecumenical ventures now seem to be morphing into interfaith ventures. Such ventures are extending the right hand of fellowship to Catholics, Jewish people, Mormons, Muslims, etc.
The mainline/liberal end of the “Christian” spectrum is involved even in interfaith ventures with Hindus, Buddhists, etc. And… with Unitarian Universalists (which would include among others New Agers and Wiccans.) Note this quote: “The Unitarian-Universalist Association (http://www.uua.org/) has openly accepted Wiccans through the Covenant of Unitarian-Universalist Pagans (CUUPS)(http://www.cuups.org/).”
Source: http://www.angelfire.com/nv/scharff/wicca.html
Where is ecumenism/the interfaith movement leading us? Toward a one world religion, I’m afraid.
It still seems to me that separation (as much as possible) from all ecumenical ventures is always the best position for born again believers. So far, I have not heard of any ecumenical ventures where the born again attendees were able to bring significant numbers of mainline/liberal attendees to Christ. In many of the ecumenical ventures I’ve heard of, the opposite has happened – born again attendees and born again denominations have become more liberal. It seems to me many born again attendees are not well grounded in their own belief system. A similar scenario: born again kids going off to state universities and losing their Christian faith.
Bottom line: it appears to me “evangelism by ecumenism” does not work. BTW, since you are coming from a born again Christian viewpoint – and since my blogsite also comes from this viewpoint, here is a link to many more articles documenting that “evangelism by ecumenism” has been a dismal failure: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ecumenism.htm
If you have heard of truly “successful” Tres Dias weekends or other ecumenical ventures (“successful” as in converting many non-born again attendees), I would be interested in hearing about them. This would be something to praise the Lord for – although as I’ve tried to explain above, I think the facts show that such a success would be the exception rather than the rule. Hope that makes sense.
God bless you – Dave
You appear to be missing the point. The heretical nature is not based on the secrecy–although that is a reason for concern.
The heretical nature of movements like Cursillo, Tres Dias, and Emmaus Walk is that they preach another gospel. Those movements teach that one is not truly a Christian [or an immature Christian at best] unless one has their experience added to their faith. That alone is contrary to the five Solas of the Reformation and is proof of their heresy.
Great point, Dave – the Five Solas are critical. Thanks for mentioning this to Sandra.
As you alluded to, teachings which are contrary to the Five Solas are proof of heresies. (I’ve seen some great Protestant articles on the Five Solas – hopefully I can locate them and post the links here.)
Interestingly, Roman Catholics refer to “heresies” as teachings contrary to theirs. But TRUE heresies are teachings that are contrary to God’s Word. Googling on “heresies” unfortunately brings up a mixed bag of Catholic and Protestant articles – hard to sort out sometimes.
God bless you – Dave
Dear Blogger, Commentors, and Readers,
I have been researching the topic of Curlliso (sp?) and Tres Diaz for the last few days now, and am glad I found something more current and recently talked about online. I am excited to see that there is someone who seems to have researched Tres Diaz to an extent, and also that there are people who have experienced The Weekend here as well!
And now I come to my point/question. At this moment in time I have heard both sides of the coin. Both what Tres Diaz claims they do at their weekends, and their desires behind it, and what other people have said about their experiences, good and bad, and how some people/organizations out there are wary about Tres Diaz, and even refute it and what they do. All I seem to find is what both sides are saying about each other. When I began my endeavor to understand Tres Diaz better, I realized I would have to remain unbiased and have prayed to stay so. I have also been praying for wisdom and guidance in my search too. At this point, one could say, I am neither for or against Tres Diaz. Therefore, what I simply desire now is the truth. I know both sides of the coin, BUT what I greatly desire to know is, WHAT is the “coin” is made of? What is Tres Dias? What is THE HEART behind it? I don’t want or mean a simple answer like I have read about from both sides, what I want is the truth.
Would you guys, could you guys share? Tell me your stories? Share your hearts? What is Tres Diaz? What is it’s heart?
…
I have a reason why I began my search, and why I desperately want answers to my questions. It is for a great love and concern of a good friend who is dear to my heart. I am sure most of you, if not all, can attest to having a friendship like that. Can’t you? You care for them and want the best for them. You don’t want anything to mess with their thinking or confuse them, BUT most importantly you don’t want anything to hamper/harm/injure/kill/confuse/stop/come between/cloud their relationship with Christ, and Christ’s with theirs. And that is what I want for my friend. I want him to excel in his relationship with Christ and come to know Him more and more! To be the Godly man God desires him to be, and become more like Jesus! To know our Lord and Savior better each day, and live to serve him in all he thinks, says, and does. To better know and realize the power of The Gospel and the power it has in his life, and the life of others. To grow in Christ!
And thus I will leave my post there. Hopefully you have seen my heart on the matter, and I hope to see yours too as well.
Respectfully,
Peter Warwick
Thanks for the honest feedback, Peter.
There are a number of things we know about Tres Dias and similar weekends that concern me:
* the secrecy
* the Roman Catholic origin
* the ecumenical nature
* the inclusion of some contemplative practices
These factors alone are red flags, for me, that born again Christians should not attend these weekends. (And they should also warn others not to attend.)
God bless you – Dave
Mr Warwick
Tres Dias, Emmaus Walk, CHRP, etc are all offshoots of the Cursillo Movement which began in Spain. While the Cursillo has its roots in Catholicism, the weekend has been modified by different Christian denominations and even other Catholic groups.
The fact is (and I speak from the position of candidate and two time rectora) that the ‘secrecy’ surrounding the weekend (we say in the Cursillo movement that “it will all unfold”) has at its very root the desire not to spoil what are surprises that occur over the weekend that help the candidates meditate on God’s love; their relationship with him through his people; and living and bearing witness in their environments/surroundings once the weekend is concluded. They are guided through a series of talks on various subjects, each talk building on the previous one and all delivered by individuals who witness through the talks.
If your friend is at a point where he is seeking his purpose in life, then let me assure you that the weekend will help centre him in that regard.
I made my Cursillo seven years ago. It was God’s answer to me when I asked him why I was still alive; why did he not take me while I slept? The Cursillo answered those questions and made me realise that my mission is the same as the Apostles Christ sent out to proclaim the Good News. . . and the Good News is that God loves his people and wants all to be reconciled to him through Christ Jesus.
I pray that God will reveal all to you as you seek to guide his children on the right path.
God bless you
Donna
Donna, I hesitated to post your endorsement of Cursillo and similar weekends. I am going ahead and posting it because of your experience with it and your insightful description of some of its “secrets”.
I’m glad you pointed out that:
“Tres Dias, Emmaus Walk, CHRP, etc are all offshoots of the Cursillo Movement which began in Spain. While the Cursillo has its roots in Catholicism, the weekend has been modified by different Christian denominations and even other Catholic groups.”
NOTE – MY CRITICISMS OF SUCH WEEKENDS STILL STAND. As I always say, “if the root is bad, the fruit will be bad.” Roman Catholicism does not hold to the Five Solas, and more importantly it seems to detest the teaching of John Chapter 3 (“becoming born again”). Thus I cannot endorse any type of retreat connected with Roman Catholicism or rooted in Roman Catholicism.
I hope and pray that you and other attenders of the weekends can see where I’m coming from. God bless you – Dave
Dave
Thank you for posting my comments.
Please allow me to point out that EVERY Christian denomination has its roots in Catholicism. It is what the early Christians were called by the Jews because everyone was welcomed to worship. In fact, it was the Jewish slur of the day on those who worshipped the Christ. Would you then, following the purported argument, say that all Christians/Christian denominations are “bad”?
We are reborn each and every time we go to the Lord and ask for his forgiveness. We are human beings and therefore, are always in a state to unworthiness. In our faith, we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which enables us to be reborn and return to a state of grace in the Lord’s eyes.
I am unable to grasp why an event that leads us to a deeper relationship with the Lord should be considered evil. The fact is that evil cannot work against itself so your conclusions, with all due respect, appear skewed.
What are the other four “Solas” to which you refer?
God bless you.
Donna
Donna, we’re definitely on different doctrinal wavelengths here. A few comments off the top of my head (I apologize in advance for being so blunt):
1) I would not say every Christian denomination is rooted in Catholicism.
Rather than delve into the origin and development of various Christian denominations/ movements/doctrines, I would say this about origins in general: I believe the New Testament church represented true “born again” Christianity, then Roman Catholicism, Gnosticism, etc. perverted it. I will try to locate some links to Protestant articles discussing this.
And, obviously, I do not believe that Peter was the first Pope.
2) Regarding the phrase “being born again”, Catholics and Protestants have different definitions. Frankly, nearly every Catholic I’ve talked to has reacted in great anger to my description of “being born again”. (Some have even cursed.) Basically, their response has been, “How dare you say that Catholics are not Christians!”
For the Protestant definition of being born again, closely study John Chapter 3 for starters. To me as a born again Protestant, “becoming born again” is “a one time experience where a sinner repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.” Other terms for it are “accepting Christ”, “getting saved”, “becoming converted”, “a crisis conversion experience”, etc. (I realize this is a simplistic answer; again, I will look for a Protestant link that explains this in more detail.)
We would say that, after becoming born again/getting saved, we walk daily as Christians. We all stumble and sin daily I’m sure, but we simply ask God for forgiveness and move on – we are not born again daily.
3) Here is a brief Protestant explanation of the Five Solas: http://www.fivesolas.com/5solas.htm I believe that only those who hold to the Five Solas can be considered born again and can be considered Christians.
I’m looking for Protestant websites that explain “becoming born again” to Catholics. Here’s one I’ve found so far: http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/catholicism.html
God bless you – Dave
Dave, I am afraid I have to agree with you on the differences of our doctrinal beliefs, although we do not differ on all of them. For example, we do believe that all should be done for the greater glory of God. We believe that every hour of the day is sacred and have prayers for each period of the day (called the Divine Office), We do believe in the Trinity – Father Son and Holy Spirit. We do believe that we are saved through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
We will not, however, limit our God to the Bible as the only way to hear from him and be instructed by him. A deep prayer life using the Bible as a primary guide along with other spiritual materials will allow the Lord to speak to us or hear him through others. (See my comments to Mr Warwick). We do not believe that only faith in the Lord Jesus will allow us access to Him in Heaven since He Himself stated that whatsoever we do to the least of His brothers that we do unto Him. “Doing” is work, therefore it is through faith in Him and the doing of good works (being Christian, being His body on earth) that we are truly saved. Even cloistered nuns “do” something — they pray constantly for the world.
If we deny that all Christian denominations are rooted in Catholicism then we are fooling ourselves. Please note that I did not say Roman Catholicism. Catholics encompass the denominations of Anglicans (from which Luther broke at the time of the Reformation), Lutherans, and Methodists all of which hold to the Apostles’ Creed, which states “I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.” Note that the word “catholic” is a lowercase and not an upppercase “c” which makes the word an adjective not a noun. The term “Roman” was designated when there was the great schism in the early church.
I realise that you are set in your beliefs. Therefore, I will no longer prolong your agony by challenging your various statement on a Church about which you know nothing and only desire to lambaste based on Protestant propaganda. Know that I will pray for you that the Lord will open your eyes to His truth.
Peace be with you
Donna Haynes
Dear Donna Haynes,
Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts and concerns, and for replying to some of my questions, I appreciate it! Some other questions came to mind after reading your post, and I was wondering if you could answer some, if not all of them, for me.
You said that Tres Dias is an offshoot of Cursillo and “has been modified by different Christian denominations and even other Catholic groups.” How is it different now? What are those differences as opposed to what they used to be?
I understand you cannot tell me what the surprises that occur over the weekend are, but I am curious as to how they “help the candidates meditate on God’s love, etc….” What is the nature of these surprises, or how do these surprises work? lol I am probably asking to pointed of questions. … What is the nature of how and when these surprises are done? Does that make sense? Like what is the environment and atmosphere like when they happen?
Also, the talks that you guys give, are they the ones that the Tres Diaz websites have posted under their essential pages?
Also, on a more personal level, would you mind talking about your weekend there? You said before you went there you where asking God why you where still alive, and just wishing you would pass away in your sleep. Afterwards, your whole outlook changed, and now you are telling others about God’s love and that he wants all people to be reconciled to him through Jesus Christ! (Which is pretty cool I must say. : ) So were where you exactly when you went there, and what specifically happened that caused you to change? What was “your weekend” like? How did it impact/change you there 7 years ago? I realize this could, and most likely will be, a potentially very serious personal question. I would appreciate hearing your story, as a persons experience is sometimes the best way to understand something.
Thanks for your time and being patient with me.
Also, if there are any other Tres Diaz people who can answer my questions, that would be appreciated as well! Thanks!
Respectfully,
Peter Warwick
Dear DaveMosher,
Thank you for allowing Donna’s post to be viewed. I really appreciate it! I hope that you will continue to let such posts, and other people’s posts, to be viewed by myself and others, even if you may be hesitant about them at first. I enjoy the pleasant discourse on the topic, (which seems, I have found, to be hard to come across when talking about Tres Dias), and would like it to continue. I am simply curious and want answers if I may be so privileged to have them. Both by yourself, and the Tres Diaz people who respond. Thanks again for all of your guys time and effort!
Sincerely,
Peter Warwick
Mr Warwick
I cannot speak to Tres Dias’ changes having never experienced it. One change I am sure about, however, is that they would not offer the Sacrament of Reconciliation or celebrate the Holy Mass since these are Catholic activities.
CHRP, which is a Catholic offshoot, (Christ Renews His Parish) has different talks because their focus is getting parishioners from a specific church community (in my case it was Sts Peter & Paul Church) more involved with church ministries.
The Cursillo talks are centred on having an ideal, how to be holy as our Father in heaven is holy; the need to study God’s word from the Bible and all spiritual/religious materials that we can so that we can have a better understanding of and be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit; how to be spiritual leaders within all of the environments within which we live, work and play.
Let me interject here that Catholics do not believe in “Sola Scripura” as the only revelation of God or as the only way to hear God. That, for us, is confining an omnipotent, omniscient God to a very small space. How can we not hear or see God in his creation or in those with whom we interact? Certainly the Bible was not around during Abraham’s time yet the One True God was revealed to him from amongst the plethora of gods that those around him worshipped.
These weekends take at least three months to plan, during which time prayers and sacrifices are offered not just by the local planning team but worldwide. The prayers are offered that God will send those in need of such a weekend (not everyone needs it!); that all obstacles to having them come will be cleared; that those persons presenting the talks will be led by the Holy Spirit both as they write and when they deliver the talk. The sacrifices include fasting, attending daily Mass, etc.
I can tell you that the surprises occur at different points of the weekend: some are during the day between talks, at lunch and one occurs very early in the morning (5:00 a.m.!!!!! for someone who hates waking early) but is perhaps the most moving of the surprises!!
I am very goals oriented. So, when I returned home after being away for 15 years, I just felt that I was wasting away doing nothing. It wasn’t a desire to commit suicide — farthest thought from my mind — but there was just a sense that I had come to the end of my life (I was 47 at the time) and there were no other goals for me to pursue. I was ready, in my mind, for God to take me! The Cursillo, as I said before, was his answer to my cry. The talks all made sense and made me realise that I have a specific purpose/goal for living — that of leading others to the Lord.
I having been living out my post-Cursillo life doing just that. It has its challenges but I have God on my side so he is always in control of the outcomes, I am merely his earthly vessel to be used.
Your in Christ Jesus
Donna Haynes
Beautifully stated Jeremy. Being a Cursillista myself, I am truly taken aback when those who know nothing on a topic try to act like an expert on said topic. My weekend changed my whole life in the best possible way! I couldn’t wait to witness for Christ Jesus! No secrets involved other than those you mention, designed to allow others the same spiritual and emotional impact that touched my life. Period. There is a similar weekend for youth called DDA. I couldn’t wait for my son to be able to attend, and prayed that he would want to. When he saw me at the end of my weekend, so joyful, he asked,”Mom! What is going on? Why are you acting like this?” I said,” Oh honey, you mean happy? Excited, and bursting at the seams?” “Yeah!”he replied. I told him,” oh baby, you’ll see! Im just so happy because God changed my life! It will be your turn soon enough! Then you’ll understand. ” 6 months later, when I went to the closing of my son’s weekend, I saw the glow on his face from across the room. When it was done, he ran to me, my 15 year old , threw his arms around me in the best hug since the first day of kindergarten. He said, “mom, I get it!”
Thanks for your point of view, Robin. Obviously I still have various problems with the three day weekends. I located the history of DDA through 1985 here: http://www.capuchin.org/CapuchinYouthAndFamilyMinistry/AboutCYFM/Historyhttp://www.capuchin.org/CapuchinYouthAndFamilyMinistry/AboutCYFM/History DDA was clearly a Catholic event – and I assume it still is. BTW I have various acquaintances who are ex-Catholics. Not to sound rude here, but I and my acquaintances are very disturbed by what we believe are false teachings in Catholicism (and many of these teachings are spreading to Protestant churches). Personally, I want no part of Catholicism or its events due to the many doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants. Just an FYI. God bless you – Dave
As a former Tres Dias member for several years, I can attest to its non-Biblical, church-destroying nature. Look beyond the”beauty” and peel the layers of that onion. It’s severely psychologically manipulative, and the mountaintop high wears off quickly due to its false nature. It’s been proven to use the change brainwashing techniques as the Moonies.
Peeling onions always makes me cry! Onions, to me, are best when they are cooked up, well prepared, as part of a nice sauce or stew. The encounter movements that have originated with the Cursillo of Eduardo Bonnin are all pretty far from his original idea. He developed the Cursillo for one simple purpose, to reach people who were far away from the formal church with the simple message that God loves each person and wants to be close and active in each persons life. He has come in His only Son, Jesus, to save us, to teach us, and to give us everlasting life in Him. He has sent His Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, to live in each willing person and empower them to love others, and God, thus participating in exactly what God does, love each person!
The Cursillo is not meant to be a “weekend experience,” it is a way of life that can be accelerated by a three day experience of grace that can help to foster conversion in an ongoing way for a persons entire lifetime. Conversion is a personal inner attitude that can always be to some extent “faked” by people. But when a person, with generous help from his friends, gradually learns to surrender himself more and more each day to the will of Our Father, it becomes pretty obvious how far one is from the Ideal of living in the grace and love of our God. It is folks like this who can best use the Cursillo to journey together in a climate that helps each one live and spread the Good News in the world.
Unfortunately (or perhaps in God’s eyes according to His designs) the movement has been hijacked by many who do not understand this and wish to use the tools of the movement to promote their own pet projects, usually aimed at propping up their own favorite Church or Church project. This is where so much of the lacrimators of the onion lie. All I am saying is help try to rescue the baby from the bathwater before throwing them both in the ditch. If you are interested at all look to the founder’s wisdom. He is Eduardo Bonnin Aguillo and has left us a clear, consistent, and very simple written legacy.
Thanks so much Robin. So many folks just do not understand that Cursillo’s aim is not to proclaim any doctrine. It’s aim is to proclaim the FUNDAMENTAL reality that God loves each person, and Jesus saves each person and calls them to share, if they wish, in His very life by helping every other person come to know this simple fact.
Ah, here we go again, Charley my friend. If I recall, you yourself have stated that the three day weekends have various problems and are not run as the founder intended. This alone would be enough for me to reject them if I were in your shoes. So are you now supporting the three day weekends, the way they are currently run? … Also, you just stated that “Cursillo’s aim is not to proclaim any doctrine”. It seems what you’re saying is that no one doctrinal/denominational stance is emphasized because the three day weekends are ECUMENICAL. Thus, doctrinal differences are purposely ignored and/or discouraged as being narrow minded. I found this interesting article on the “Three Day Movement”, which alludes to the above. I agree for the most part with the criticisms made throughout the article: http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=376 God bless you – Dave
Hmmm, Dave,
I responded to a recent posting by Robin (I think). Your note seems to reference a response to Philip back in April. Anyway, to answer your question, though I do not know that it is of much value, my “support” is always aimed at what He is doing. I believe that the Spirit of Jesus is alive, well, and very much in control and at work in His church, His mystical body. For reasons that escape me, and apparently only in His merciful will, He has chosen to offer us very small and mis-guided persons, the wonderful opportunity to play a very small role in WHAT He is doing. This takes discernment. Discernment requires communion with others. Communion requires love…that we love one another. Tearing down is always an option, but before I take action to tear down it is very important that I do all I can to lovingly discern with others if this is what He wants of me. After all, He could easily end anything He wishes to end simple by saying, “Ah, forget it!”
As for supporting or trashing anything I would like to suggest that it is quite impossible that all the existing Christian Denominations, let alone any of their programs, preaching, doctrines, etc., are perfect. Of course it is possible that one or the other of them is perfect. I simply think that it is highly likely that not one of them is perfect. But I know that He is perfect, and that, though it is well beyond my feeble mind to understand, He is allowing all of them to exist as He works, with or without our help or support, to perfect them all in Jesus Christ our precious savior.
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley, not that I want to go down this road again, but what you have stated is not the full gospel. Yes, God loves each person, but each person is also a sinner and sin cannot go unpunished. The real good news is not just that God loves each person, but that because of His love, Jesus took that punishment on Himself when He gave His life and died on the cross. And by His resurrection, those who believe and have faith in Jesus having paid in full for their sins will also be resurrected to have eternal life with God.
I would have to disagree with any suggestion (if indeed this is what you are suggesting) that Jesus saves each person without he/she coming to this point of accepting that Jesus died to pay the price of sin so that we don’t have to.
Regarding Tres Dias, my understanding (as with Dave’s) is that you are unhappy with the way it’s being run and that secrecy designed to impact others emotionally is not a good thing. Yet here you seem to endorse such behaviour. And this is part of my problem with the actions of Cursillo groups generally (aside from if the true gospel is being taught). They rely on secrecy to impact others.
As Terry has stated, this is psychologically manipulative and, to address Robin here, one doesn’t have to be “an expert” so see it. I have read and heard testimony from people like Terry who were involved in, and others who have been hurt by Cursillo type weekends. Some of my friends were hurt through another Cursillo type event, Walk to Emmaus, because of the highly manipulative nature of the group. The methods used there are certainly very similar to those used by Tres Dias.
Anyone who endorses secrecy by reason of “impacting” others spiritually or emotionally, is endorsing psychological manipulation, a hallmark of cult activity. Christian groups are on dangerous ground by resorting to similar techniques, even if it’s for “promoting” the true gospel. The ends do not justify the means. It is by the Holy Spirit that people see the true gospel, not by emotional manipulation. If we rely on man’s methods, then we are not relying on Him.
Philip
Amen, Philip!!!
To accept this amazing gift that Our Father has given us in our salvation, as you so carefully point out, requires freedom. And, yes, I oppose anyone who would attempt to manipulate one of His lost lambs, and that includes Formal Churches and their adherents as well as mis-guided proponents of any and every ilk. The challenge is to realize that each one of use is called to BE Christian, not to just do or say Christian things. When we each tend to ourselves and let His goodness flow as much as possible, amazing miracles happen. He works!!!
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley,
I’m curious, in view of your last comment assuring me of your agreement with what I said, as to why you previously apparently agreed with Robin’s post advocating secrecy for the purpose of allowing others to be impacted spiritually and emotionally.
I’m also curious as to why you could not accept, according to a previous post back in April, that Jesus had to suffer humiliating torture and death caused by each person’s sin, in order to save us from the eternal punishment. Yet now you seem to agree with me on that.
I’m afraid I’m at a loss to understand where you really stand on the gospel of Christ crucified and dying as punishment for the sins of humanity. And that only those who recognise their sin, recognising also that they deserve eternal punishment, and accepting in repentance and faith that Jesus, as God, took that punishment instead, will be saved.
Philip
Philip, great points as usual. No offense to Charley, etc., but I’ve had similar discussions with people who label themselves as “Christians”. I noticed I have to be very specific, since Catholics, etc. will insist that they are “saved” and “born again”. Looking back, I should have asked, “How were you saved – by baptismal regeneration, or by a “crisis experience” where you repented of your sins and gave control of your life to Christ? Second, I should have asked, “Can you name people who have gone to Hell?” Catholics refuse to name anyone specifically as having gone to Hell – yet Jesus stated very clearly that those who do not believe in Him are ALREADY condemned. Personally, I would not enjoy attending a “Christian” retreat where the leaders are not truly born again. God bless you – Dave
Sorry, but for some reason all I can access on the Blog is the thread from last April. I cannot refer to Robin’s post or see more than the first part of your last post. Just to be clear, I do not support any secret activity or secrecy in anything that claims to be of God. I find secrecy always a very bad policy. I also believe that any form of manipulation is “not of God.” Of course I could be wrong, but I believe that freedom is God’s greatest gift, after life itself, of course, because it is only my personal freedom that makes it possible for me to love. What bothers me is the constant pressure of those who do not understand tis very basic fact or reality of life in the Spirit to impose their personal wills on others. Certainly the Cursillos have been perverted in many ways to this end, but so have all of the Formal Churches. It is a driving factor of our culture. It is part of our fallen nature, that the living personal and close and friendly Jesus Christ, or Savior and God, is constantly saving each of us from. There is good in all He has given us!!!
Love
Charley, thanks for the feedback. The born again “Protestant” gospel may sound offensive and an imposition of our will and beliefs. But the Bible says the gospel of salvation and Calvary will be offensive, a stumbling block, to the Jew and the Gentile. In essence the gospel to me means the following. God is a God of love. But He is also a God of holiness, justice and righteousness, and He will not allow sinful human beings to be in His presence after they die. But we all have sinned. There is nothing we alone, ourselves, can do to rid ourselves of sin in God’s eyes. So God sent His only begotten Son to be our sinless, perfect sacrifice on the Cross. Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the Cross. But to be covered by Jesus’ sacrifice and make it to Heaven, we need to 1) exercise our God-given free will to accept Christ, 2) repent of our sinful lives, 3) believe in the virgin birth and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and 4) live 100% for Christ, sincerely strive to obey God’s Word in every way, giving Him our all as Saviour, Lord and Master. All four of these steps are essential to make it to Heaven (but to be blunt I see many Catholics and liberal Protestants falling short on points 1, 2 and 4). The “Protestant” gospel is encapsulated in John chapter 3, particularly John 3:16. Again, I do not call this view narrow minded or imposing my will – I believe this is the true essence of Christianity. And yes, the true Christian gospel will offend. Who does it offend the most? Sinners, who do not want to repent of their sins or even believe the Bible is true. When preachers offend sinners by preaching against sin, the Holy Spirit can use this message to convict them of their sin, soften their hearts and lead them to repentance. A gospel that does include a “negative” side convicting of sin is not the true gospel. That is what I believe. Gotta run – hopefully I’ll get to add more to this comment later. God bless you Charley – Dave
Hi Dave,
I certainly do not disagree with any of your theological positions. It is just that I am so very happy in Him that I am not concerned about death. Actually He has assured me that I will not die, and this is certainly very scriptural. So I, being impatient as I am, have asked Him to let me get started right now. It is amazing the things that have happened in my life. I am certain some things will be different after this sack of bones is inserted in a box or roasted to dust, but I am more certain that what is important, far more important, being in and with Him will remain. I am just so happy to leave all the details to Him and hope He can use me to attract a few others to join us.
Love,
Charley
Was Jesus filled with joy as He went to the cross?
For me, Jesus death was not so much His acceptance of a justly deserved punishment to assuage an angry offended God as it was His merciful acceptance of the real consequences of our, including my personal, rejection of God’s amazing grace. I say this because of His simple words from the cross, “Father forgive them. They do not know what they are doing.” This was not just a nice platitude. It was the clear statement of reality!
As for who is saved, I leave that judgment precisely where it belongs, between God and each person. My job is to live in such a way that others see in me something that gives them the hope that will turn them toward Him by asking Him to give them the faith in Him alone, and that is what becomes the channel, the power cord, that allows His love to spread in the world.
Love
Charley
Hi Charley,
I’ll take it then that you did not intend to agree with Robin’s post that secrecy to impact people spiritually and emotionally is acceptable.
On the gospel, it’s clear that you don’t understand that it was absolutely necessary for the purpose of salvation that Jesus died as a sacrifice for punishment for sin, appeasement for God’s wrath – “propitiation” being the word used in scripture. We are not in agreement on this and it is THE most essential doctrine of all.
You seem to believe that Jesus died as a consequence of refusal to accept God’s grace, or because He was judged to die by people, not God. This is not the gospel. That means that Jesus didn’t really have to die. This is why it’s so important for Cursillo to teach the gospel and it doesn’t happen.
Jesus HAD to die because, if He didn’t, there would be NO salvation. God demands a blood sacrifice for sins. The only person who could do that once and for all was Jesus. Only He was without sin and so did not deserve to die. Only He could pay the price by dying when He never sinned and only that could be enough sacrifice for all the sins of humanity. Only that is enough to satisfy God’s wrath.
Ecumenism ignores the reality of the gospel for the sake of unity. It pretends the gospel is that God loves people and to live accordingly in Christ is the fulfilment of it. This is just religious waffle. It does not tell us what God’s love and judgement entails and what He did to save people from eternal punishment. The seriousness of this issue cannot be overstated. We are talking about eternal life with God or eternal punishment.
You have said Cursillo is not about doctrine and that it is likely that no doctrine is perfect. This is just dodging the issue. If there is no agreement on the doctrine of salvation, there is no unity. To ignore the doctrine of salvation merely ignores the elephant in the room. You cannot even begin to know the depth of God’s love by ignoring that very act of sacrifice by Jesus to save anyone who accepts it. To merely feel that God loves you is not enough.
While it’s true that we can’t know for sure who is in hell or heaven, we can say those who die without accepting that Jesus paid the price for their sins by dying an undeserved death, are destined for hell. But those who do accept it are destined for heaven.
Who goes where depends on who accepts His act of salvation, not living according to Jesus’ teachings or thinking that God loves them. That’s not going to save anyone. That’s just empty religion.
Thank you so much, Philip,
I think you have helped me very, very much to see exactly where and why our dialog is going. Cursillo, again in my opinion, is all about “doctrine,” but it is about a very different doctrine from what you seem to want me to embrace. It is one that is very simple and very fundamental. Let me frame it as best I can:
God is LOVE. He made and sustains everything in, with, and through His very personal and infinitely powerful LOVE for all He alone has created and sustained. In His wisdom of giving His love freely to each person He has given each person the freedom to accept or reject His love. History is the working out of this “dialog” or “communion” of each of us as well as all of us together, including an amazing number of groups and factions of people. Why He has chosen to do this is beyond anyone to comprehend, and so very often we try to do so giving way to lots of different “doctrines” “schemas”, “theologies”, and so on. Of course these rightly become very important to us, sparking all sorts of debates and even conflicts.
In the end, it seems, that you and I see God in different perspectives. You see God, in the event, the history, of Jesus, differently than I do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think you have come to the conclusion that because man offended God, God in His righteous anger had (this means was coerced to act) to sacrifice His only son as a sort of payment to appease himself so that He could open the doors to a heavenly afterlife for those special people who “believe” this version of His historical encounter with all mankind. I hope I have at least come close to what you are saying.
For my part, I have come to know (in my heart and soul, as well as my mind) a very different picture or reality of God. As I see it He really is love. He is the definition of what love is. There is no fear in love. There is no anger, no retribution. In fact, the Jesus I know and love, who is the Word of God, makes this very clear and very personally so to me, because He is God. He is Our Father. He is the Holy One of Israel and of Moses, who in the ultimate unbelievable act of self sacrifice, opened Himself by becoming enfleshed in the person of a humble Jew who opened to us the Word. Who gives us Life, who is alive and here in us and with us, and who in history, did not shrink from the ultimate incredible reality of the all powerful surrendering His own body into the hands of us, His own created creatures, and suffering all the consequences of His horrific passion and death. He died because of our sins, which are ultimately, as He clearly points out over and over, simply our stubborn selfish refusal to love Him and all those He has made! For me the better part that Mary found (Lk 10:42) is to embrace Him now, moment by moment, rather than trying to find a way to heaven. My life really began when I asked Him to show me that He was real. He did, and for the past nearly half century my life has been so very wonderful, and I have been so very happy, that thoughts of a future reward in Heaven seldom cross my mind. My reward is clinging ever more tightly to Him because I know He loves me. In the end the true mission of Cursillo is and always has been the same as His mission. The good news, the Gospel is that God Loves You, period. All the rest, including Jn 3:16 is additional supporting data. No it is not about feeling that God loves me. It is all about knowing He does. The simple circumstantial reality that makes it hard for many far away people to know He loves them happens to be that they very often get the impression, often from other Christians, unfortunately, that He does not, or that He only loves them if they do certain things, or say certain things, or agree with certain people, and so on. The truth is that He Loves You. The choice is yours as to what you will do about it, and whatever you do will have consequences that are clearly ultimately between you and Him. More important than what I think about Him is what He thinks about me. More important than believing I know is knowing that I believe.
Love,
Charley
Thanks for clarifying your beliefs, Charley. This is very helpful – your stating what you think Philip and I believe regarding the doctrines of God, salvation, etc. I won’t respond in detail now (it’s getting late). I would say this – I agree that you have a different view of God and salvation than do Philip and I. Now to a few specifics. I assume you have no problem with the first part of John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”. I assume our interpretations and beliefs differ when it comes to the second part of John 3:16 – “that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” It appears that, for you, the essence of Christianity can be summed up in the first part of John 3:16 (the love of God). But for me and Philip, the essence of Christianity can be summed up in the second part of John 3:16. Would you say this is the case? God bless you – Dave
I think we are on the same page. By way of clarification, any difference between us may be in the meaning of the word “believe.” For me, and it is difficult to express this, faith is a gift, believing is a gift. And it is a gift from God, meaning from Our Father. He is so very real and close and involved in every moment of my life that the meaning expressed in Jn 3:16 is quite transcendent to me. Once I have accepted this wonderful gift of His moment by moment presence in my life, everything begins to make sense. It grows gradually, though at times it seems by leaps and bounds, but every moment it becomes clearer. He is. He is love. He is Jesus. Jesus is alive, close to me, personal, passionately in love with me. He is seeking me. He is filling me. He is even using me. And as it becomes clearer and clearer it helps me see my own limitations, and what He is doing, even with me, despite them. It also helps me see many potentialities, and the greatest of these is, because I know I am so small, I know that He loves each and every person just as much as He loves me. When I think and pray about this, John 3:16 makes perfect sense. How can I not “believe” and “accept” this simple formulation of the reality of life in His wonderful Kingdom. I do so fully accept it, literally. He is love. He loves me and each person. He loves us so very tenderly that He laid aside all His power and authority and submitted Himself to men, men just like me. In the light of this fact I am simply mind boggled and the reality of my own small-ness, my own selfishness, my pride and so on…my sinfulness jerks me back to the reality that what He wants of me at all times is just to be His, His grateful adoring…and at times adorable, little child. It is awesome. And it has filled me with overflowing joy and happiness that I only hope I can help others come to wherever He is calling them. Then everything, for me, is summed up in Jn 1:1 and everything else is supporting information to help confirm the reality of what I know deep in my heart.
Love,
Charley
Charley, thanks again for your feedback – although I think we’re covering a lot of the same points again. On another front, I’d like to get a better handle on where you’re coming from. Or more specifically, what writers, theologians, etc. have helped shape your worldview (not just regarding the teaching that “God is love”, but regarding Christianity in general). I know you like the founder of Cursillo. Can you name some others? Many are Roman Catholic, I assume… As for me, besides the King James Bible, some of my favorites are the Protestant Reformers who developed the Five Solas. Also I like the writings of John Wesley, as well as writings of the Wesleyan Holiness movement (especially between approx. 1890 and 1930). Also, I like The Fundamentals (a series of articles written between 1910-1917). As far as modern day writers, one of my favorites is Independent Baptist David Cloud. BTW, other than the Bible which I love from cover to cover, I don’t necessary agree with all of the teachings of the above. I don’t adhere to one specific denomination, but definitely lean toward being “fundamentalist” – some might even call me “old fashioned” 😄. God bless you – Dave
Thanks Dave,
I do love to read, and do read a lot of Catholic writers from time to time, but not at all exclusively. The most recent book that has come my way is by Thomas Merton, “Life and Holiness.” He seems to grasp much of what I have experienced. I also find the writings of the recent popes, especially the last three to be very deep. In fact I feel a spiritual kindred with them as they seem to be working so very hard to undo much of the damage done by the popes before and during the time of the reformation. Another of my favorites…from a long time ago is Deitrich Bonhoffer, a Lutheran, “Cost of Discipleship.” Recently I have read two books that I think best express the underlying working of the Holy Spirit that gave rise to the Cursillo…and many other Christian movements. One is “Yes We Can Love One Another” by Warren Angel who is a minister in California, and “A Celtic Model of Ministry” by Jerry Doherty, an Anglican minister from Minnesota. I do find a special insight in and bond with St Theresa of Avila, as I find her experience of prayer and relationship with God so similar to (though no doubt far, far deeper than) mine. Of course the bible, Holy Scripture, is the sine qua non. I read mostly the USCCB approved text since I am usually dealing with other Catholics, but I do like to compare many other vesions, and often refer to Greek (which I know almost nothing about), and the Latin Vulgate as it is on Biblegateway.com. As a Catholic I read and study and also write on the selections that are chosen for each day’s daily Eucharist (the Mass), as well as wonderful little presents He gives me all the time of various verses that just turn up out of the blue. Micah 6:8 has been a major one of the years and has just popped up again in strange ways. I have never read Wesley or Calvin or Luther, for that matter, Perhaps I should do so. It is interesting that the founder of Walk to Emmaus wrote a little history of its founding. In it he spoke of the Cursillo weekend he attended as a young Methodist minister. There happened to be a Presbyterian minister there also and at dinner he asked the guy what he thought of this “Catholic thing.” The man said he was not sure but that he felt certain the founders had been reading John Knox. To which Rev Woods replied, I don’t think so, I think they were reading John Wesley! I also read a little daily devotional from time to time, “God Calling” edited by AJ Russell. It seems to often have special meaning to me and my wife. BTW 2 Corinthians 8:9 really grabbed me this evening, “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” I am a very rich man!!!! Jesus is everything!
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley,
Thank you for your clarifying post regarding what you perceive is the gospel. Like Dave, I find this a more useful post than others you have posted. It shows that there is a broad gap between us when it comes to the gospel and so there can be no communion or unity in Christ between us.
To be clear about something, I do not believe that God was “coerced” into doing anything. What He did by sacrificing His own Son was His choice, and His choice alone. Nobody has the power to coerce God to do anything. That would be to say people have a hold over Him which is a ridiculous concept.
God’s sacrifice was done out of His ultimate love which surpasses any love we can truly comprehend. That is why He (Jesus) gave His life – there is no greater love than laying down ones life so others can live. And when God did it, no human sacrifice in the same vein can come close to what He did.
The love of God which you portray is devoid of this ultimate act of love. It is love without the greatest love of all. Such a love is not “all love”, but deficient love. It’s love in name only.
As for there being no fear, anger or retribution in love, I would say these are human understandings of emotion rather than an understanding of Godly justice and what that means and entails.
Yes God is love, but He is also justice and it’s the justice bit people would rather forget or ignore. Sin is rejection of God in whatever form that rejection takes and all of us reject God in some way or other every day. God being a God of justice as well as love will sit in judgement on those sins. Our rejection of Him, no matter how small or insignificant it seems to us, is unacceptable to God. So where’s the good news? Jesus paid the penalty instead of us!!
Because of what Jesus did, God looks at us as though we are innocent of sin because the one who truly was and is innocent paid the penalty. But this can only be IF, and it’s a BIG IF, we accept that that is what He did. If we don’t then all of God’s justice will fall on us.
Now you may (or not) try to see this as a God of hate and anger and retribution lashing out in rage at those who would dare to defy Him. But that would be to ignore what he did in sacrificing the most precious person to Him – His own Son – to pay the penalty and take His wrath on Himself. In essence, what God did was to self inflict His punishment on Himself instead of us by choice and He did it because of a supreme never to be equalled or repeated act of self sacrificing love.
I have to say with all due respect Charley that your version of the gospel looks very wishy-washy to me in the light of what I have just said. It lacks the Biblical gospel of Jesus laying down His life in my place so I walk free into eternal life with Him. That’s the ultimate love and every time I think and meditate on that fact, my mind cannot grasp the enormity of it. It completely overwhelms me that God loves me that much. It overwhelms me because I do not deserve it and that amount of love is humanly impossible.
When I hear the gospel of Cursillo, I feel underwhelmed. It’s only religion and not reality. It tells me nothing of the gospel I see in the Bible. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, and when he went to do it, Abraham told Isaac that God would provide the lamb for the sacrifice. And God did, and that was just the foreshadow of the ultimate lamb of God – Jesus. Why else is He called the Lamb of God if not as a substitutionary sacrifice in our place? Just as he provided for Abraham and Isaac.
You say He has shown you that He is real and you know He loves you. That’s only half of it. The other half is to accept His sacrifice in your place otherwise that knowledge will not save you.
It’s not enough to say he died for our sins. That needs to be clarified into what that actually means. It means that he died as a punishment for our sins in our place. That’s the good news and if you don’t see it that way, then you have blocked your mind to it.
That’s why truly regenerate Christians will never be in unity with the gospel of Cursillo. it’s a false gospel, one which removes any reference to the real reason why Jesus died and replaces it with a watered down version of love.
I really do hope and pray that you see the true gospel Charley. It pains me to see someone so close and yet too far away.
Philip
Thank you Philip. Thank you so very much for your care and your brotherly concern for me. I know that you do not see this but I believe we are so very close in understanding His amazing, incredible, even unbelievable love for us, for each and for all of us. I feel we are like two little people walking around in a great forest who are very close to each other but obscured from one another by the density of the vegetation. We may each be looking at the same hill, but from different sides. When He finally leads us to the top we will be together and see it His way. There is nothing in your discourse that I cannot agree with. In fact it was precisely Cursillo, implemented by many people, imperfect as they were and are, that He used to bring me to my knees and to the realization of the reality that you express. That is why I am spending my time, and treasure, at the end of my life praying and working to help others correct abuses that will always abound in His church and His world that He loves so much.
God is Love. He defines love. And as you so wonderfully and clearly point out, His definition, at its very core, its sine qua non, is Jesus Christ, Who is I AM. That is the Good News, the Gospel, and it “passeth understanding”!
Hi Charley,
While I respect what you say, I don’t see how you can disagree with Jesus’ death as a substitutionary punishment in one post and yet imply you agree with it in another. This makes no sense to me and makes me think your main objective is to be in unity with everyone at the expense of correct doctrine.
I don’t see us as two people looking at the same hill from different sides. The true gospel looks exactly the same from ALL sides. I know folks with whom I would disagree on interpretations of certain scriptures. But I would absolutely agree with these same people on the doctrine of salvation. That makes us true brothers and sisters in Christ.
But in your case, I get a very different message and it’s one of confusion (at least for me). But the gospel has to be absolutely clear. It cannot be fudged, watered down, made to sound the same but different or be confused. It MUST be exactly the same in each person’s understanding for there to be any unity.
Did Jesus die as the act of grace as a substitutionary punishment, taking our punishment that we fully deserve on Himself or did He die as a consequence of our rejection of His grace?
For me, He died as the ultimate act of His grace, not as a consequence of rejecting His grace. Those who reject His grace are rejecting His death as payment for sins and they will go to hell. The consequence of rejecting God’s grace is eternity in hell, not the death of Jesus. God’s grace IS the death of Jesus.
Can you not see the difference here? Your position (if I have it right) is that people reject His grace and the result is that Jesus dies as a consequence. My position is that he died as the very gift of grace which people are free to accept or reject. His death is His very act of grace not a consequence of its rejection.
I don’t know how much more I can say on this Charley. To me, we are not In agreement and when you say we are closer than I think, I can only say no we’re not. One step away from the true gospel is the same as a million steps away. There can be no compromise. God did not compromise His plan of salvation. Jesus’ death was planned by Him right from the start of history. And He never changed it in any way.
It was inevitable that Adam sinned and so it was inevitable for Jesus to die to put that right so that we can be considered righteous and be reconciled to God. The apostle Paul says in Romans 5:10-11 that by His death we are reconciled to God and then, having been reconciled, we will be saved by His life. That’s His life after His death. But for us to be reconciled to God first, HE HAD TO DIE. That’s not the same as dying as a consequence of rejecting Him. For us to accept Him, it was necessary for Him to die.
That’s the gospel. And I haven’t seen it in what you say or what I read Eduardo Bonnin said.
I desperately want you to understand the true gospel and to see we are not really in agreement.
If however you were able to say in repentance that Jesus, being both fully human and fully God, died as a necessary punishment to pay for your sins, and by doing so He satisfied God’s judgement on you so that you can have eternal life through His resurrection and there is no other means by which to be saved, then we would be in unity. But to say that the gospel is that God is love and that He loves everyone and leave out or not believe the rest of this paragraph, then it would not be the gospel and therefore we would not be in unity.
Philip
Philip,
I am really so grateful to you for caring enough about me, and about my salvation. In the end this is, to me, an awesome grace and is what love really is all about. The reason that I think we are so close, and that I do not disagree at all with your statement of the means of my salvation, and yours, is in the motivation, as I see it, for His grace. Why? Why does such a good and gracious and all powerful God, Our Father, do what He does. My very experiential conclusion is that His motivation is that He loves me, and you. I believe this is a mystery that no person can ever understand.
Our dialog began and is rooted in the consideration or resolution “Cursillo is bad and should be rejected and stopped.” In my Church ministry that spans many years of helping people prepare to celebrate the initiation sacrament of Baptism I have met many people who were turned away from the Church, and Jesus, by their inability to accept the reality of sin in their lives and in the world because they thought themselves (and correctly so, in my estimation) powerless to overcome or deal with it. I have found that dwelling on this reality can drive them further from Him. On the other hand, when a person comes face to face with their powerlessness in His presence, the “Aha!” moment often arises. And as they step into that moment and into His warm embrace their life becomes a gradual unfolding of the real reality of Him, moment by moment, healing, forgiving, challenging, empowering. This is what I call life in the Spirit. I have seen this process unfold in many lives, sometimes assisted by the method of perseverance that is the real authentic Cursillo. Some folks along the way have seen the Cursillo as a single event, a three-day experience, and, perhaps through lack of faith in Him, found ways to “enhance” (really distort) the weekend by dreaming up things that might cause people to “look like” they have encountered Christ, at least look like it to them. This is the distortion of the Cursillo that I wish to point out. Of course this same reasoning works for almost anything Christians say or do to others…when they are not done out of Christian love.
With God, I have learned that nothing is inevitable, except His merciful love. He came and suffered death for us because, in His wisdom, it is the very best way He could show us His love. In the end it is not that we have loved Him but that He loves us first! Fear of Hell and loss of heaven is a powerful motivator for some. Pure love, the Love of Our Father constantly there for us, even to His own horrific sacrifice, when grasped, even if only as a possibility, is a never failing motivator. That is what changed my life, and I have seen it in many others.
That is why I can say yes to your faith and the formulation you express, which is deep and obviously so very strong in your life, why I can accept it as well. Yet my experience of life, study, and apostolic action over almost half a century compel me to share with you this wonderful experience that has brought me such a deep and ever-present JOY. I simply offer it as a witness of life. I do not intend in any way to diminish your experience or your understanding. In the end, it is our precious Father who has put us in touch with each other. I have found what is for me the pearl of great price! Perhaps it is as worthless as a pearl would be to a dying man or to a multi-billionaire, but it is what He has given me and I offer it in a spirit of sharing a blessing.
God loves you, and me. Everything that has been done, or will be done, is done out of His amazing grace, His love. My task, as I see it, is not to change your mind but only to help you see what I see in the hope that it might be useful to you in your walk with Him, and with the faith and prayer that it will do you no harm. Love never fails.
Love,
Charley
PS: There is an ancient chant that the RC liturgy repeats at each Easter’s vigil service. It recalls our history of salvation and in it Adam’s sin is mentioned as “felix culpa” which means something like “happy fault.” The wording expresses the amazing grace and mercy of Our Father by noting what a happy fault it was that gained for us such a Savior. This is not intended as a cause and effect statement, but simply a way of experiencing the reality of the consequences that being His children makes real for us.
Thanks Charley,
With this I will end my side of our discussion for the present time at least. There is much of what you say with which I agree. However I do still feel the difference between us is the most important one of all.
The issue for me regarding the gospel is whether people can be saved without Jesus dying. I say absolutely not. I don’t accept that Jesus death was “only” the best way for God to show His love for us. It was also necessary to fulfil the penalty for sin. It was done out of His eternal love but it was also done to assuage His wrath against sin. This is a real concept and isn’t just an unimportant difference of opinion.
I don’t disagree with you regarding the boundless love of God which is way beyond human comprehension and that Jesus died in expression of that love. But it goes even deeper than that. The realty of God’s hatred of sin means that no human can possibly live with God in heaven even with His love. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has always demanded a substitutionary blood sacrifice for the price of sin and the reason why these sacrifices from Old Testament times have stopped is Jesus was the once for all sacrifice.
Without this sacrifice, nobody could be saved even under God’s love. It’s only possible under substitutionary sacrifice. And the gospel is that God inflicted it on Himself rather than us. But for it to be effective, we must accept that fact in repentance and faith. Only then will we be saved and have eternal life with Him in heaven.
Accepting His love but rejecting His death as substitutionary sacrifice is actually to reject His love. Thinking of Jesus’ death as “just” an expression of His love, even the ultimate expression of His love is not to recognise His substitutionary sacrifice.
I hope you can see the difference. Plenty of folks accept that God is love and He loves them unconditionally. However far fewer realise that the price He paid in the death of Jesus was to pay for God’s judgement on our sin. He will never forgive sin without that payment, and those who wish to be saved must accept it.
Bye for now Charley, I hope the Lord leads you in His ways.
Yes Philip, I think we have each said what we need to for the moment. The only thing that I wish to add is that I am absolutely certain that God did what He did the way He did it, and I accept it with all the acceptance I can muster up. I think that the little difference between us is in our view of God. It is just that He surprises me moment by moment with the way He is constantly doing things in every person’s life. Miracles are normal. I just have to believe that His ways are infinitely beyond my understanding and they always work for good. That is what makes me so happy. Sin is real. It is just as real as He is. But He has, through the blood of Jesus conquered not only sin, but its wages, death. Whether or not I believe this…it is the truth. Nothing else makes any sense. So for me the only thing that makes sense is to live in such a way that people who have not discovered this wonderful truth find it as quickly and easily as possible. No doubt many do turn to Him out of fear of hell or desire for heaven and this is a beginning to their conversion into His friendship. There are many others who reject, often for good reasons, this simple and correct formulation shutting themselves off from conversion. What I have found is that helping people meet Him personally in friendship, which is where He, even if only as a distorted projection, can always be found. That is one gift I can usually offer people. Once they do find Him, and recognize Him, He always offers amazing ways to grow deeper and deeper in His astounding love! That is why I have no desire to change (much less to correct) you views or affirmations of faith. They are certainly true (and very Catholic, by the way). I do challenge you a little to let Him lead you, if you and He wish, just as deeply into His mystery of love as He sees fit. That will always be my prayer for you, my brother, and I do not say that lightly!
Love,
Charley
Dear Dave,
Did Donna ever respond to my second post? I am just curious. I was looking forward to hopefully having more of my questions answered. Thanks for your time!
Sincerely,
Peter Warwick
Hi Dave
Perhaps an oversight, but my response to Peter Warwick was not posted.
I am grateful that you shared your experience of Roman Catholics with me and greatly relieved that your attitude is toward doctrine not persons.
That being said, let me point out that I do not hold to the Hindu belief that all things are God hence the multitude of gods that they have within their belief system and so would constitute pantheism. I believe that God’s revelation of himself can come about from sources other than the Bible, which is the foundation for all Catholic doctrines. For example, ours is a Eucharistic-centred Church because our Lord called us to commemorate Him in this way — “Do this in memory of me.” — and so when the early Christians gathered there was the “breaking of bread” (read Acts of the Apostles). We believe in the real Presence of Jesus once the bread and wine are consecrated because He did not say “This is Like My Body . . . This is like My Blood.” He said “This is My Body. This is My Blood.” So, to say that there is no transformation of the two earthly substances would be to call Jesus a liar!
Therefore, the Mass, which we consider our greatest prayer because it is one continuous prayer to God the Father, through his Son in union with the Holy Spirit, is the constant recollection of Calvary and a celebration of God’s redemptive love by our partaking in eating Jesus’ Flesh and drinking His Blood, which, again, He told us that unless we eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood we shall not have Life within us. We become a part of His body each time we receive His Body and His Blood.
The Bible is our primary source of revelation of God, after all, it was compiled by the Catholics. The “Protestant” Bible, which was done later, excludes the Apocrypha or the seven books accepted as being canonical in the Catholic Bible. However, God’s revelations are not confined to the Bible. I ask the question again: if the Bible did not exist, would God still exist? The answer is a resounding “YES!!!!!” To say that he does not communicate with us directly today is, in my mind, a heretical statement. The Holy Spirit is always at work within our lives; we must have a listening heart to hear his voice! It is our diminished capacity to listen that may make it seem as if God does not reveal himself directly to us any more; but as one who hears him constantly speaking to me — albeit I sometimes try to ignore him and do my own thing — I know with certainty that he does reveal himself sometimes through my Biblical meditations, sometimes through persons, sometimes through his creation.
Allow me to explain the latter. Some years ago I was in Omaha on a silent retreat. I would speak to my spiritual director one hour each day and would participate in the Holy Mass but other than those times, the rest of the day would be spent in quiet meditation/conversation on/with God. During lunch one afternoon, I decided to sit in the garden to eat. As I sat there, a bird landed on the lawn in front of me and stood there for about two minutes unmoving. It then slowly lifted one leg and moved forward one pace and stopped, crooking its neck to one side as if listening. After about thirty seconds, it then lifted the other leg and stepped forward, again crooking its head from side to side as if listening. It was not at all bothered by my presence, even when I moved. This went on for about ten minutes with the bird moving forward across the lawn very slowly and always seeming to be listening. Eventually, the thought hit me across the head — I am very impetuous and prone to just doing whatever comes to mind as it comes to mind without asking the Lord if this is the direction in which he wants me to go — and I recall praying “Ok, Lord. I get it. You want me to listen to you before I make any moves.” No sooner had the thought taken root, the bird flew away. Now, I do NOT think that the bird is God. I believe that God used one of his creations to impart a lesson I needed to learn. So his revelation came, in this instance, through his creation.
Let me respond to your statement: “being born again”. I don’t know how else to say it – as a born again “fundamentalist” I believe there is only one way to get to Heaven – through a one time conversion experience accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour, becoming “born again” (this is how we fundamentalists interpret John Chapter 3).” I do accept Jesus Christ as my Lord, my Saviour, my Friend, my Brother, the Lover of my Soul, My All in all. That notwithstanding, being “born again” for Catholics is an ongoing process because we are all sinners. We are called to be holy as our Father in heaven is holy, but we are also human and so are constantly sinning.
The ultimate sin is if we remain and wallow in that sin without asking the Father for forgiveness. Once we have confessed our sins to a priest who sits in the confessional in the person of Christ — in persona Christi — then we are reborn and reconciled to God’s love once more. So the grace that God freely gives us is always available to us if we but turn to him. Reflect on the story of the Prodigal Son or, what I prefer to think of as “The Forgiving Father” who did not even wait for his son to come inside but ran outside to greet him. The father who did not tell his son to eat with the pigs as he requested but who killed the fatted calf. The father who rejoiced and threw a party for the son he thought lost to him. That is my Father in heaven, who forgives me, loves me and patiently waits for me to turn back to him and grasp his outstretched hand for him to help me up. That is what “being born again” means to me.
“Donna asserts falsely that Scripture is not sufficient, that believers must have experiences such as Cursillo, Tres Dias, Emmaus Walk in order to be mature and complete–a point which she does not base in any objective truth–but her own subjective experience.”
Please note that I did not at any point assert any such thing!!!!! Please, again Dave, publish my comments verbatim, rather than place your own subjective interpretations on them. In my unposted comments to Peter Warwick, you will notice that I said to him that not all persons need these weekend experiences. The ones who are in need of the weekend are those who are still searching for their purpose in life. The talks that are given on the weekend (Cursillo) are laced with passages of Scripture which direct the candidates to look at their lives in the context of serving God. Again, Dave, let me assert, that evil CANNOT work against itself — something on which the Lord Himself instructed His disciples!
I commend you for trying to learn more about the Catholic faith. You will find that our beliefs are biblically based contrary to the opinions of fundamentalists.
God bless and enlighten you
Donna Haynes
Yup, Peter, if you haven’t heard already, Donna did reply. Hopefully all her posts show now. God bless you – Dave
I have been loosely following this thread for a while and am just now finding the time to respond. As a way of introduction, I am a 47 year old Evangelical, conservative, born-again Christian, raised in a traditional, conservative Southern Baptist church. I attended my Tres Dias weekend in October of 2002 and have since served on 11 teams. I recently completed a three year term of service on the Secretariat (governing body) of our local community, Tres Dias of North Georgia. I believe these unique qualities allow me to address specific questions and concerns raised in this thread. I am posting this in the interest of education and edification, not as a defensive counterattack.
First off, allow me to share a bit on a personal level from my weekend experience. I was invited, openly, by the way, not in “secrecy” as has been alluded to earlier in this thread (I’ll address the whole “secrecy” issue at length later on), by my pastor,at the time, who also happens to be my best and most trusted friend from childhood. I did some online research and also talk to numerous people at my church who had attended. i will admit to some mild skepticism when I learned of TD’s Catholic origins, but in discussing it with several close friends who had attended, I came away reassured that there were no heavy Catholic overtones nor were there going to be efforts to subtle impart Catholic or Marian ideas at any time. The overwhelming answers to my questions of what to expect were “to see Jesus with skin on,” “to experience the love of God in a profound way” and “have my walk with Christ strengthened, deepened and reaffirmed in a dynamic way,” From the time I arrived on Thursday evening til closing on Sunday afternoon, these expectations were met and exceeded beyond my wildest dreams. I saw men serving sacrificially, speakers being transparent, clergy ministering on the most personal level I had ever seen…Jesus with skin on? Uhhh…YEAH! Never once did I feel pressured or controlled. Never once did I sense any Catholic undertones or hidden agenda. I felt love and acceptance…I had my entire understanding of grace deepened and stretched beyond anything I had ever imagined…and I received a much fuller understanding of my identity in Christ. It was a weekend of experiencing God’s love and grace I will never forget. I was able to forgive myself for many things in my past and leave a lot of emotional and spiritual baggage on that mountain top.
As life-changing as my weekend was, coming back and serving others on subsequent weekends has been the most rewarding part of being a part of Tres Dias. Contrary to many comments I see about the purpose of Tres Dias being to “recruit new candidates” and “brainwash,” the stated purpose, in “The Essentials of Tres Dias” is
“to bring Christians to a closer, more personal walk with their Lord Jesus Christ and encourage them to Christian leadership and Apostolic Action in their environments.”
This is modeled on every weekend. There is no proselytizing, recruiting or “head-hunting” …the common denominator is the love of Jesus Christ and salvation through His grace and mercy. Yes, many different denominations are represented on a weekend, both among the candidates and the team members. The focus is always to RETURN to your local church and be a leader.
At the risk of overkilling it, I am going to copy and paste the complete Essentials of Tres Dias for several reasons: first, to dispel the whole notion of secrecy. This will give you a complete rundown of the entire weekend schedule. By the way, this is all readily available at http://www.tresdias.org/hp.htm . Second, I want people to understand that EVERYTHING that goes into Tres Dias is Biblically based, rooted in Scripture and bathed in prayer. Third, I want to show that there is no “Catholic agenda.”
Preamble
The TRES DIAS Movement endeavors to bring Christians to a closer, more personal walk with their Lord Jesus Christ and encourage them to Christian leadership and Apostolic Action in their environments.
TRES DIAS is based on the principles, the method, and the teachings of the Roman Catholic Cursillo movement initially proposed by Eduardo Bonnin and his fellow Christians. Each candidate goes through three phases of the TRES DIAS movement: the pre-weekend, the three-day weekend1 and the Fourth Day. TRES DIAS is a Christian ecumenical movement.
“The founders of the Cursillo movement saw a world of great need around them. They knew that the answer to the needs of the world had to be Christ and His Grace; but … they saw Christians who did not live for Christ, and they saw a church that was … ineffective and without life. They developed the Cursillo to meet part of this problem: to provide any part of the church which was ready to undertake the formation of Christian life with all the people it needed — people who would have the deep dedication to Christ and to bringing all peoples to Him — people who would undertake a regular program of formation in Christianity, and who would make their Christian life conscious and vital — people who would understand how to be part of a unified apostolic effort.”²
The main teaching of TRES DIAS is God’s unqualified love for each of us through grace. It asks each member of the TRES DIAS community to grow in their personal piety, to study God’s Word and other Christian writings and to express their love for Christ in Christian Apostolic Action.
These three aspects of Christian growth are stressed in the cloistered environment called, “the weekend.” An invitation is issued during the weekend for each Pescadore to join a small group of his/her own choosing for continued support, prayer and encouragement.
In order to ensure consistency and stability within the TRES DIAS Movement, there must be certain essential aspects to which all TRES DIAS organizations conform. These Essentials fall into two categories: those which are quantitative and those which are qualitative in nature. It is the intent of TRES DIAS to use both of these categories as criteria for chartering local secretariats.
It should therefore be the policy of local secretariats to comply with these Essentials. Policies of local secretariats which deviate from these Essentials must be reviewed on an individual basis and are subject to the approval of TRES DIAS.
2.0. Essentials of the Movement
1. TRES DIAS Is A Christian Movement.
The ultimate objective of the TRES DIAS movement is to strengthen and extend the Body of Christ. No TRES DIAS organization shall change the teachings or practices of the TRES DIAS Movement to accommodate the participation of non-Christians.
For the purposes of these Essentials, “Christian” is intended to refer to those who are seeking a closer relationship with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
2. TRES DIAS Is A Christian Ecumenical Organization.
All TRES DIAS organizations shall actively seek the participation of persons from all the Christian denominations in their environment.
All TRES DIAS organizations shall stress those things which the Christian denominations have in common and respect those things which are different.
All TRES DIAS organizations have the duty and the authority to protect the TRES DIAS ecumenical structure.
3. Tres Dias is a Lay-led Movement. TRES DIAS is a lay-led organization; however, the active participation of the clergy is both essential and to be encouraged.
4. TRES DIAS is a Non-Profit Movement.
TRES DIAS organizations should pursue prudent fiscal policies. They shall avoid accumulating assets beyond what is required to carry out their part in the TRES DIAS Movement.
5. The TRES DIAS Movement Shall Not Assume the Role Of A Denomination
TRES DIAS is not a church-substitute; rather, it encourages Christians to worship and serve in their home congregations, as leaders.
6. Tres Dias Is Not A Service Organization
The TRES DIAS Movement encourages Pescadores to participate in “worthy projects.” TRES DIAS organizations shall limit their activities to those related to carrying out the Tres Dias method.
3.0 The Essentials of the Tres Dias Method
1. The three sequential phases of an individual’s involvement shall be: The Pre-Weekend phase, The Weekend phase, and The Fourth Day phase.
2. The object of the Pre-Weekend Phase is to prepare individuals for effective participation in the Weekend.
3. The purpose of the Weekend, in terms of method, is to prepare individuals for effective participation in the Fourth Day.
3.1 The Essentials of the Pre-Weekend Phase
1. That the candidate be sponsored for participation in all phases of the Tres Dias Movement, rather than just the Weekend.
2. That Candidates be sponsored by a member of a chartered Tres Dias community or similar community approved by TRES DIAS.
3. That candidates have a desire for a closer relationship with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
4. That candidates be accepted candidates from all Christian denominations.
5. That candidates be at least 21 years of age. However, if a local secretariat, using it’s best judgment, finds a sound and compelling reason (such as a spouse of a pescador, or military personnel), it OCCASIONALLY, on a case-by-case basis, may accept a candidate who is at least 18 years of age.
6. That candidates have not previously made a Tres Dias Weekend or a similar experience recognized as equivalent by TRES DIAS.
3.2 The Essentials of the Weekend Phase
1. The weekend have the following characteristics:
A. It is a weekend of living in Christian community involving a combination of carefully developed activities and teachings which are meant to lead to a fuller personal commitment to Christ.
B. It embodies personal witness, but is not a revival meeting.
C. It employs group dynamics, but it is neither sensitivity training nor group therapy.
D. It employs theological instruction that encourages the candidate to study his/her own Christian beliefs, but it is not a course in doctrine.
E. It includes a period of silent introspection, but it is not a retreat.
F. It is a renewal experience for Christians and is not necessarily a conversion experience.
G. It asks for basic faith, openness and seeking attitude on the part of the Candidate, but involves a great amount of dedication, prayer and careful planning on the part of the team.
H. It is an encounter with the Holy Spirit. However, TRES DIAS is not a “charismatic” movement.
I. The Weekend is a tool of God, not an end in itself. The weekend will not produce a permanent effect without Fourth Day activity.
2. The Spiritual Directors should be qualified to teach and counsel in spiritual matters.
3. At least one of the Spiritual Directors on the Weekend should be ordained and be authorized to regularly celebrate Holy Communion by his/her denomination.
For the purposes of these Essentials, “clergy” is intended to refer to those persons qualified to serve as Spiritual Directors.
4. That men and women attend separate Weekends. The Spiritual Directors are exempted.
5. Team members represent a spectrum of Christian denominations.
6. That team members have previously made either a TRES DIAS Weekend or a similar experience recognized by TRES DIAS.
7. That the Rector must be a layperson and be responsible for all aspects of the Weekend, under the authority of the local sponsoring Secretariat.
8. That the team meets prior to the weekend to: promote community, receive instruction on the dynamics and critiques ALL Rollos.
9. That the TRES DIAS weekend be an intensive three-day program lasting approximately 72 continuous hours.
10. That the team and Candidates live in a cloistered environment for the entire Weekend.
11. That lay-talks may not be given by clergy, and Spiritual Director talks may not be given by a lay person.
12. That the Weekend begins in the evening with the following agenda:
• Introduction given by the Rector
• Start silent retreat to end after chapel the next morning
• Know Thyself meditation, given by clergy
• Prodigal Son meditation, (or alternatively, or a women’s weekend, the Hosea-Gomer account as recorded in Hosea 1—3, or the account of the woman caught in adultery, as recorded in John 8:1-11) given by clergy
13. That the first day of the Weekend will have the following agenda:
• The Three Glances of Christ meditation given by clergy
• The Ideals Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Grace Rollo, given by clergy
• The Church Rollo given by a lay person
• The Holy Spirit Rollo, given by clergy
• The Piety Rollo, given by a lay person
14. That the second day of the Weekend will have the following agenda:
• The Figure of Christ meditation, given by clergy
• The Study Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Sacred Moments of Grace Rollo given by clergy, followed by Holy Communion
• The Action Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Obstacles to Grace Rollo, given by clergy
• The Leaders Rollo, given by a lay person
15. That Chapel visits by each table occur the afternoon of the second day.
16. That the third day of the Weekend will have the following agenda:
• Christ’s Message to the Pescadores meditation given by clergy
• The Environments Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Life in Grace Rollo, given by clergy
• The Christian Community In Action Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Reunion Groups Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Living The Fourth Day Rollo, given by a lay person
• The Apostolic Hour
• The Closing
17. That chapel visits by each table occur the third day, preferably in the morning.
18. That table discussions follow each Rollo except the Fourth Day.
19. That all Rollos and meditations follow the dynamics and outlines authorized by TRES DIAS.
20. That the team and Candidates have the opportunity to celebrate Holy Communion each full day of the Weekend.
21. That a diversity of environments and viewpoints must be attempted in planning the Weekend itself and in forming the tables.
22. That the freedom of self-determination of each candidate be respected.
23. That the lay Rollos be informal talks of a witnessing or sharing nature.
24. That a friendly, creative Christian environment must be developed and fostered during the TRES DIAS weekend, as opposed to a coercive or manipulative environment.
25. That the schedule allow time for informal personal contact among the team and Candidates.
26. That the Closing be as well prepared as other activities of the Weekend.
27. The sponsoring Secretariat encourages the community to participate in the weekend through spiritual and service Palanca.
3.3 The Essentials of the Fourth Day Phase
The Pre-Weekend and Weekend phases are only a prelude to each individual’s Fourth Day.
1. Reunion Groups
a. That local Secretariat encourages Pescadores to participate in Reunion Groups.
b. That local Secretariat utilizes the form of Reunion Group known as the “Working Reunion Group” to carry out the activities of the Tres Dias Movement.
2. Secuelas
a. That local Secretariat sponsor regularly scheduled Secuelas; preferably at least once each month.
b. That each Secuela include an opportunity for Pescadores to participate in the form of Reunion Group known as the “Floating Reunion Group.”
c. That each Secuela includes a “Fourth Day Talk”.
4.0 The Essentials of the Local Secretariat Organization
The function of the local Secretariat is to conduct an effective program in accordance with the Tres Dias Method.
Each local Secretariat must have a document, approved by its membership, describing its structure and operating procedures.
The members of a local Secretariat must have completed a TRES Dias weekend or a similar experience recognized by Tres Dias.
All Pescadores of the TRES DIAS community whom the local Secretariat claims to represent must be eligible to serve as voting members and officers of the secretariat, providing they agree to meet, uphold and follow the qualifications as outlined in the local community’s Constitution and By-laws.
The local Secretariat have a plan for the periodic election of new members.
The local Secretariat must be the sole sponsor of a Tres Dias Weekend held in its community.
Each local Secretariat must sponsor at least two (2) TRES DIAS Weekends each year. For the purposes of chartering, this requirement may be waived by TRES DIAS.
In addition, this is the Tres Dias Statement of Belief, which is posted on our website and on each of our applications…Most communities i know of, as well as Tres Dias International, prominently display this on their websites and publications. Again, note the Scripture notation.
Tres Dias Statement of Belief
1. We believe and profess our faith in one Triune
God-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt.28:19).
2. We believe and profess that Jesus Christ is the
only Savior and is God in the flesh (John 1:1, 1:14, 3:36,
14:6 and Heb. 2:17).
3. We believe and profess that the Holy Spirit is God and is
the Lord and Giver of Life, who continues to work inbelievers today to sanctify, edify, and empower the whole Christian church on earth – for His purpose (Job33:4, Acts 1:8, John 14:26 and Rom. 8:11).
4. We believe and profess that the Holy Scriptures
are the inspired and completely true Word of God (2 Tim.3:16-17).
5. We believe and profess that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; that forgiveness of sins is received through confession and repentance – and that our sins are washed away through the blood of Jesus
Christ (Acts 2:38, 1 John 1:9 and Rom. 3:23).
6. We believe and profess that salvation is a gift of God’s grace received through personal faith in Jesus Christ(Eph. 2:8).
7. We believe and profess that the Body of Christ is to make every effort to keep the unity of Spirit through the bond of peace until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God (Eph. 4:3, 13).
8. We believe and profess that God’s unconditional love, as made manifest to us through Jesus Christ, is the primary witness by which people are renewed, edified and changed (1 Cor. 13:8).
9. We believe and profess that God has called us to live holy lives that will bring glory to His name (Col.3:1-25).
NOTE: For purposes of standards and principles, Tres Dias ascribes to those stated in the “Authorized King James Version” of the Bible of 1611 (KJV)
And now for the issue of secrecy. Allow me to preface this by saying that I can only definitively speak for my local community, Tres Dias of North Georgia (TDNG), but I assure you no one is told to “not discuss things that happen on the weekend.” There are two things, one event and one traditional practice, that candidates are asked not to mention so as not to spoil the surprise and impact for others. To explain this, allow me to use a simple analogy. Imagine I were planning a surprise birthday party for you and someone told everything that would happen, who would be there, and what gifts you would get. Would it still be your birthday party? Would you still be happy? Well of course…but would it have the same surprise factor and impact? I would argue that no, it wouldn’t. The same principle applies to these two surprises on the weekend. If you knew about them and spent the weekend expecting them, it would diminish the impact. And trust me, especially in the case of the “event,” the surprise is well worth a little secrecy. I will admit, we have had instances within TDNG where people have felt a need to impose a shroud of secrecy, whether through misunderstanding or misinterpretation or an attempt at “exclusiveness.” This is not encouraged on any level. We have taken great steps to DIScourage secrecy in any form. As I tell people who ask me about Tres Dias, you can ask me anything about the weekend and answer you completely and honestly. I’ve gone so far as allowing a skeptical friend (who now has made a weekend and serves regularly) to look at the outlines for each talk on the weekend. I want to share this experience with others so that they can have the same blessings I received…what sense does it make to play “secret club?’
I realize this is a lot of information. I’m not expecting anything other than a willingness for all to read what I’ve posted and give it prayerful consideration. People have asked me why I’m so passionate about Tres Dias. The simple answer is that I see God working in lives every weekend…not just in candidates lives but in the lives of team members as well. Let me illustrate with one story from many I have been a part of. I have a very dear friend who made a Tres Dias weekend about 4 years ago. During the team meetings (which begin roughly two months before a weekend happens) for his first weekend serving, his 23 year old son died very suddenly from an undiscovered congenital heart condition.. As a member of the Secretariat, I got to see those team members rally around him, pray for him and his wife and walk with him through the grief process. But that wasn’t all. Table assignments are made from the final candidate list, but speaking/non-speaking professors (team members) are usually assigned mid-way through the team meetings. This friend who had lost a son suddenly just 2 months before discovered that the candidate sitting next to him at his table had lost a son to a very similar medical condition a little over a year before the weekend. These two men were able to minister to each other and my friend was able to pray with the candidate and help him to reconcile his feelings with God. Now tell me that was not a Divinely appointed thing! I could go on with other examples of how God has maneuvered and worked through small things on weekends.
Finally, allow me to share my view on the ecumenical debate you and others raise. If by ecumenical you mean a watering down of the Gospel and doctrinal foundations of Christianity in order not to offend or to “broaden Christianity’s appeal,” I can assure you unequivocally that this is not what you will find in Tres Dias. Tres Dias celebrates the risen Christ…plain and simple. Faith in and acceptance of salvation through God’s grace are the hallmark and foundation of the movement. Jesus said in John 17:20-23:
“20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
This is the ecumenism found in Tres Dias…unity of the believers as a witness to the world. When I serve on a weekend, I don’t see Baptists, Methodists or Lutherans…I see my brothers in Christ.
Dave, I chose to respond on your blog for several reasons. Most sites that are critical of Tres Dias and other Fourth Day movements tend to be vindictive, haughty, self-righteous and often base their arguments on supposition, hearsay and unfounded suspicion. You have voiced legitimate, well-considered concerns in a civil, Biblically sound manner…I appreciate that. I would love to continue this dialog as I think it could bear good fruit. Feel free to send me a friend request on Facebook (I have an unusual last name so I’m easy to find!). I pray that my post has been helpful. If you have any other questions about Tres Dias I’d be more than happy to answer them. God bless you!
Aaron, thank you for your comments and detailed info. Very helpful, for those who are wondering what Tres Dias includes. You wrote various statements which raise concern for me, but I will hold my responses for another time (for now I’m posting this to allow others to respond). My position is still the same; my posting of this info in no way means I am endorsing Tres Dias.
I do want to thank you for these kind words:
“Dave, I chose to respond on your blog for several reasons. Most sites that are critical of Tres Dias and other Fourth Day movements tend to be vindictive, haughty, self-righteous and often base their arguments on supposition, hearsay and unfounded suspicion. You have voiced legitimate, well-considered concerns in a civil, Biblically sound manner…I appreciate that.”
Don’t get me wrong – I have very, very strong positions on many doctrinal issues. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be civil with our “doctrinal opponents”.
Example: my grandfather was a missionary to China and Taiwan. He preached often, witnessed often, and brought many people to a crisis conversion experience of salvation (repenting of sin/conversion/accepting Christ/becoming born again). I remember him telling how he had a deep discussion with some Buddhist monks. He knew the Buddhist teachings better than they did! Because of this, they listened to the gospel message he was able to share. Perhaps some of them accepted Christ and are in Heaven today because of my grandfather – only the Lord knows.
My point is, I am comfortable as a born again Christian discussing opposing teachings with my “opponents”. If (key word if) my opponents, those who hold to opposing teachings, are sincerely willing to listen to my views.
On the other hand, I have LITTLE TO NO TOLERANCE for the following (in no particular order):
1) once biblically sound born again Christians who have “apostacized” and are now – in spite of many warnings – leading other born again Christians astray
2) New Evangelicals/liberals/mainliners/postmoderns who are invading/hijacking evangelical denominations and leading born again Christians astray
3) Heretical individuals who deceptively, falsely label themselves as “born again Christians”, or order to gain the trust of born again Christians and spread their false teachings
4) New Agers (Oprah Winfrey, Roma Downey, etc.) who deceptively, falsely label themselves as “Christians” – apparently in order to reach the Christian market
There are others I have little to no tolerance for, but the above are the four main groups. Hope that helps clarify where I’m coming from with my blogs.
God bless you – Dave
hey there . well this has definitely had ALOT of comments. First of all, can you tell me why you believe in the Trinity? I have been taught that it exists but recently a friend of mine has been showing me that there is nowhere in the bible that says God is 3 in one. As a matter of fact, he showed me that Revelation shows that God has SEVEN spirits . So would you happen to have Biblical backup to show me that can show me WHY so many believe in the Trinity?
In addition, as to the 3 day weekends…. I went to one a year ago. I liked it very much. Yes there were secrets in it. As a matter of fact, i didnt know i was SUPPOSED to keep it a secret. I started fbing about it and actually got messaged by my sponsor that it was supposed to be kept secret. Now why? well, I can assure you its not because of any wrong bad doctrine. There were some lovely parts to this weekend, that left me ( someone who has NOT felt loved very often) feeling totally loved and wanted . they want others to feel that too, that is all. The weekend I went to was not cursillo, walk to emmaeus or tres dias, but it sounds like it was very much like them…. it was called ” Great Banquet.” the song De Colores played a huge part in it and the family feeling left me feeling cared about and loved. what is wrong with that ?
I just wanted you to know that its not the diabolical anti christian type thing I think you might think it is .
blessings
crys harris
Thanks for the comments, Crys.
Just a few quick thoughts. Regarding the seven spirits, I’m assuming you’re referring to the first few chapters of Revelation. Here’s a brief discussion of the seven spirits: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Spirits_of_God. No, the Trinity does not have seven spirits (seven separate personalities) – there are other explanations.
I concur, the term Trinity is not in the Bible. But neither are the terms Bible, Christian perfection, primary and secondary separation, etc. Yet we still use the terms.
My simple defense of the Trinity: the three members of the Trinity are certainly mentioned. And I believe it was a given that New Testament Christians believed there were three members of the Trinity mentioned in the Bible. Namely, God the Father (Jehovah/Jahweh), Christ the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit.
God bless you – Dave
hey, Dave,
thank you so much for answering this so quickly. That wickepedia on the 7 spirits was interesting and that makes sense. I don’t know what primary and secondary separation are … never heard of those, but , no, I guess the bible DON’T say the word bible does it? 🙂 I’m kind of new to this stuff. My friend who don’t believe in the trinity actually sent me something the other day that actually included 1 John 5:7 which says ” 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” . This actually makes it sound very much like there IS a trinity so it kind of confused me a bit because we had just been talking about how their wasn’t one 😛 I am not sure Shepherd’s chapel, the group that he is the closest to adhering to , believes in it actually. . it does sound like they did believe in the trinity in the early church because otherwise I don’t get 1 john 5:7. there is SOOOO much that is confusing right now. … thank you though, for answering
crys
also, why do you say the secrecy of the 4th day stuff is wrong ?
Short answer: a Christian ministry should never be conducted in secrecy, IMHO. To me it seems too much like an initiation, or like a secret society.
Actually, the secrecy does not bother me as much as the ecumenical aspect of the weekends, as well as some other aspects.
Well that’s it for now. God bless you – Dave
thank you , Dave. I’m new to all this…… will have to look up what ecumenical even means . 🙂
Hi all,
My name is Charley Green. I just ran across this blog thread accidentally (Hmmmm revelation perhaps?). I made the Cursillo in 1978 in WV. I am a lifelong devoted RC (well I did spend a few years in the proverbial desert, but that’s another story!). I found the Cursillo a wonderful experience for one simple reason that hit me on Sunday afternoon of the weekend. “I CAN DO THIS”. The this I am talking about is really not a doing but a being. “I can be a Christian”. What hit me that Sunday was the simple fact that God had not made me or intended me to “do it” alone. I needed others, a group of people to help me discern and hold me accountable. That was the gift I brought from Cursillo.
Yes there were some who wished to keep secrets, but I have never been good at that anyway and agree completely with Dave Mosher that things done in the dark are well….dark things. What I did was immediately call together a group of friends to meet weekly, just to share our “Closest moments with Christ” Where we saw Him at work in our lives. You see I do believe because of experience that God who is all powerful and all loving is revealing Himself to me and others all the time. I am also quite certain that no modern day revelation, if it is from Him, will be contrary to Scripture! As for the understanding, the preaching, the teaching, the directing and all the rest we have plenty of “Organized” sources for that. I do not need to be one.
In 1981 I moved to Houston, TX and found that Cursillo there was much more “organized” than in WV and as such seemed often more man’s wisdom (especially the wisdom of the organizers) and less of God’s Spirit. After several years sharing this with others my wife and I became more and more involved in the wonderful ministry of helping young families come closer to Jesus in preparing them for Baptism of their infant children (Not intending to spark an ancilliary debate here! It’s just what we did for a quarter of a Century and more.) and our involvement formally with Cursillo dwindled away. We continued to live Cursillo’s Charism (though we did not do so by any intention other than it being the best way we knew of staying Christian)
In 2008 a series of unusual events brought me back into the movement and even into contact with many national and world leaders of the Cursillo movement, as well as a number of folks from spin offs. My difference with the US National Secretariat of Cursillo lead me to publish “Living the Gospel With Common Sense” a polemic about the movement here and a call to a return to the Foundational Charism of Cursillo.
In the long thread of this blog I read a lot of “buzz words” that seem to always cause division and differences. I was truly astounded in 2009 when I discovered several essays by Eduardo Bonnin. I think it is important if a person is seeking the truth to get as close as possible to the source. I noted Dave Mosher’s link to the Catholic Catechism goes to an source that looks “un-official” to me. The best way to learn about the Catholic “Dogma” or “Doctrine” is to go to its source. I found Dave’s link to the Cambridge Declaration to be enlightening. Below are some links to official sites for anyone who might be interested:
The Vatican
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gudium “Joyous Gospel” (my translation of the term)
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html
Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
There is also a new book by Kristy Nabben-Waren, a professor of Religion at the University of Iowa . That is quite enlightening about much of the content of this thread.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cursillo-Movement-America-Spirituality/dp/1469607166
Anyway, I believe that buzz words cause us lots of trouble, and I am thinking of the word “Ecumenism”. Jesus asked Our Father to make us one, then He commanded us to “Love one another as I have loved you.” I think loving as He commanded calls me to share all the gifts He has given as much as I am able considering where He has placed me in His Body the Church. With this in mind I welcome and encourage all Christian dialog on the basis that we are all seeking the truth….which is really a person, Jesus Christ, Our Lord. To put it a little more bluntly, religious affiliation is a gift that has blessed me abundantly, but I praise and thank the giver and cling only to Him not to the gift!
Love, Charley Green he-is-love.com
Mr Green
Thank you for shedding much needed clarity to the purpose of the Cursillo. Like you, I have also been led to minister to those who have strayed from God’s love and help them reconcile with his love through worship after my Cursillo weekend.
Donna Haynes
Hello. Thank you for this post.
I am Roman Catholic, but will speak only to what I learned during and after my weekend, which was an offshoot of Cursillo.
The series of “surprises” is an important psychological tool in their method.
However, I believe the main reason for the secrecy is that if people were fully aware of what was to happen, most would not attend. Finding, and keeping, new candidates for the length of the weekend is imperative for the life of the group.
That is probably why Cursillo groups and offshoots tend to insist that sponsors drive candidates to the retreat sites and ensure they have no way to leave early.
However else you and I may differ, I respect and agree with your belief that God is real. In these groups, however, people are taught to look horizontally, not vertically, for “God” — that “God” consists in one’s neighbor and nothing else.
Their heresy was evenhanded; my retreat was nominally Catholic, but much that was taught was heretical according to the Roman Church.
I believe these weekends are a place where long-time members can get their hugging fixes. If, to you, “holy communion” consists of a hug, you will fit right in. If you are an extrovert, or very needy, it would be a great place to go.
I believe this is a place where uneducated and inexperienced people get the opportunity to act as counselors and amateur therapists for a captive clientele.
And, most importantly: if someone is under any kind of stress, or comes from an abuse background, the psychological pressure cooker created by the Cursillo method could be dangerous to their mental wellbeing. If you remember nothing else I say, please remember this.
Here is a very good website on the subject, coming from an Evangelical Christian viewpoint:
http://questioningcursillo.com/index.html
And the book, Cursillo: Little Courses In Catharsis, has more information:
http://www.amazon.com/Cursillo-Catharsis-Brian-V-Janssen/dp/1606087754/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260216473&sr=8-1
Thanks for the comments, Rosemary. This has been very insightful, reading a critique from a Roman Catholic viewpoint. God bless you – Dave
[From a reader who asked their name be withheld]
Thank you so much for this article Dave.
I’m currently dealing with this Tres Dias “elitism” in our church. The difficult thing is that our pastor endorses the weekends. Discernment tells me that the underlying agenda and potential damage of these weekends is something that we have yet to see the full extent of. I don’t think that people are taking seriously the prophetic days we are living in and the supernatural powers of deception which are at work to bring even the “elect” into deception and the global church led by the Antichrist himself.
I am seeing people far removed from their normal behavior and appearing to almost be in a trance-like (and yes, “elitist”) state who have attended Tres Dias. They have gone on to launch a new ministry outside of the church, led solely by Tres Dias participants.
The methods employed to achieve the cathartic experience which they all point to are plainly mind control techniques. The experience would be the same if they were at a Silva Mind control weekend or at a Moonies retreat, yet they attribute it to an encounter with the Holy Spirit. That is beyond mere manipulation.It is a deception, a lie. What an offense to the Lord this is!
I am heartbroken to see so little discernment in the body of Christ today. Believers are looking for experiences rather than realizing the fullness and joy of a humble and obedient relationship with Christ. That is not to say that there aren’t experiences, but only to say that ought not be our focus.
Please keep getting the truth out about these weekends.
God bless you,
[Name withheld]
norm
With respect to 3-day weekends and the folks who wrote “I’m currently dealing with this Tres Dias “elitism” in our church. The difficult thing is that our pastor endorses the weekends. Discernment tells me that the underlying agenda and potential damage of these weekends is something that we have yet to see the full extent of.”
I am a 20 year member of a 3-day weekend group and have extensive experience with the weekends and the people who sometimes leave with the “secretive” notion. There is no secret about the weekends that cannot be shared with respect to the purpose, intent and teaching. I know many pastors and church leadership that have attended these weekends and I know of none that have been there and did not find it a refreshing weekend. Tho only objectors that I know are folks that have decided they are in no need of Spiritual growth beyond where they are OR – have been infected with the misguided idea that they are to keep a few aspects of the weekend a secret.
The weekend in all 3-day events is intended to be a short course in God’s Grace. People attending are put together in table groups for the three days and they hear 15 “talks” related to the subject of Grace; 10 of which are delivered by lay people and 5 delivered by clergy. They laugh together, pray together, cry together and generally each experience a closeness to God and one another that is impossible to achieve in a church setting – particularly with adults. (I tell people the event is church camp for adults)
I have experienced people that are either misguidedly told – or come away with the notion of a “secret”. There are a few items that are not disclosed merely for the purpose of surprise. These things have nothing to do with the purpose, intent, or teaching. They rather have to do attempting to create moments of grace (God Moments) for the participants during the weekend. For example, in the community I participate in we make small tokens of mail which we call “Agape” that may be a card with a bible verse or a piece of colorful candy with a note that says “go color your world” that is left on their bed each day as a reminder of God’s love for them.
While it is true that some individuals take the secret notion to an extreme, there is NOTHING done at these weekends that encourages a special club or elitist idea. On the other hand I have seen many people leave these weekends in a state of revival. They experienced Christ/the Holy Spirit in a way that they previously have not. To this extent I have seen marriages changed, lives turned around, and individuals who have stepped out to live differently for Christ in a variety of ways. Is everyone changed in this way? no, but in the days of the Apostles and certainly in our day, anyone truly touched by the Spirit of God would be considered odd.
My recommendation is try it – if at the end you find it is not for you – OK, but keep in mind; many people outside the church that most of us worship in say similar things about our church – simply because they haven’t tried it and they don’t understand. Please accept my apology for your over-zealous friends that think they have a secret. YOU try explaining a fresh encounter with the Holy Spirit to someone and see how it works for you. It can’t be explained – only experienced. in my 20 years of involvement in 3-day events God has done nothing short of miraculous things; in the lives of individuals, churches and communities. They are not a cult, they are not preaching any new religion or a different Bible. They are packed with the stuff that most preachers wish they could deliver on a Sunday morning.
My 2 cents,
Thanks for your detailed comment, Norm, giving your positive description of three day weekends. If I may ask, I’m wondering in your experience what denominations most attendees belong to. I get the impression most are Roman Catholic or Orthodox or mainline/liberal Protestant. I have yet to meet any “fundamentalists” (born again, “right wing” Christians) who have hosted or attended such weekends.
To me, the heart of Christianity is what many people would consider “old fashioned” – a born again gospel message about the blood of Jesus shed on Calvary, calling sinners to repent of their sins and accept Christ as Saviour, and involving some type of altar call. To put it bluntly, if the three day weekends lack this component (or if they lack attendees who accept such a belief), I would have no interest personally in attending such a weekend.
To readers in general: I would love to hear some responses explaining/defending in detail the negative side of the weekends – such as why so many attendees reportedly return to their churches and “stir up trouble.” If the weekends are so wonderful, why would attendees return to their churches with this mindset?
Anyway, thanks again Norm for your comments presenting “the other side”. I do appreciate your calm, civil, reasoned explanation of the weekends as you see them, in the face of so many opposing comments. God bless you – Dave
There is an interesting little movie, “The Gods Must Be Crazy” aout the adventures of an African Bushman and the people who try to help him in his mission. The premis of the movie is that the pilot of a small plane tosses an empty coca cola bottle out the window. It falls into a group of aboriginies who think it must be a gift from “the Gods”. Nobody knows what to do with it, but people quickly find many uses for it. In short order they begin fighting over it and even with it by clonking one another on the bean! The little Bushman receives hs mission for the people to take the thing back to the gods.
I think this little story can serve as a metaphor or parable here. As a Christian my mind tells me that most everything is a gift from God. My fallen nature generally steps in to “use” every gift to its greatest advantage. Many yers of prayer and living tell me my ideas of what to “do” are always far, far short of what God is doing all the time. The wisdom that I have come to is that a gift is not His gift until I give it away to someone who needs it. It is simple as that.
Here is a little quote from the founder of the Cursillo:
“When we speak of “EVANGELIZATION” in the context of the Cursillo, we do not only mean it, or even mostly mean it, in the sense of simply passing on or spreading the Gospel’s Good News, but rather to succeed in making the person “BECOME” the GOOD NEWS, that joyful good news that Christ is alive in and amongst His people today just as surely as He was 2000 years ago.
This in essence was the vision and mission of the Cursillo from the beginning. To find the best possible method of bringing about this conversion — of moving a person from where they are to where they could be; from human to fully human; from alive to fully alive in recognition, acknowledgement and acceptance of their true identity and dignity as beloved children of God.”
Eduardo Bonnin, the founder, spent the last sixty+ years of his life trying to keep Cursillo simple. Of course many others wished to “improve” the gift or use it for their own ends. There are many around the world today who are trying to call Cursillo (in all of its present manifestations) back to the simple wisdom of the founder. So is Cursillo bad? Certainly!!! Is Cursillo good? Of course it is!!!! How can this be? Because, like all good things in our hands “All have sinned and fallen short…” God is in all things, but He is not all things. I have come to the conclusion that there are always two Cursillos, God’s and ours. To my way of thinking, we must decrease and He will increase. Yes, some peolple hate Cursillo. Some people have been hurt by Cursillo. In every case I have seen the hurt and hatred are consequences of OUR CURSILLO. Many, as Norm pointed out, have been helped and love Cursillo. Any goodness is of God.
St Augustine in his confessions pointed out that “People hate the truth in favor of whatever they love more than the truth. They love the truth when it makes them shine brightly. They hat it when it illuminates their shortcomings.”
So I encourage those who see the faults of “Cursillo” and encourage them to speak up, and I urge all to listen to them, and think and pray about it. I also encourage those who love the Cursillo to embrace the suffering of any who have been hurt by doing what they can, mostly through prayer and personal witness to help bring the movement back to its Foundational Charism by always putting friendship and love first.
As for trying to “create” little surprizes, why not just keep focused on creating a truly loving and respectful atmosphere and relationship with each brother or sister and standing back and rejoicing in the miracles God works.
As for “kinds of people” or “kinds of Christians” who have “experienced” the Cursillo weekend, that is all up to God and His abundant grace. Rest assured that the weekends have been attended by folks of every denomination and every evangelical persuasion. In the end, since we are all beloved of God, like Rodney King, I ask, “Why can’t we all just get along?”
Love,
Charley
Thanks, Charley, for your comments. If I read you correctly, your’re saying to take an open minded, live and let live attitude towards the three day weekends. Well I’ve already made my position known – I’m eager to read how others respond. God bless you – Dave
Not exactly, Dave. What I am trying to say is that, as I see it all Christians live under a new mandate (which is really the spirit of all the old mandates) namely, love God and love each other as He loves. Having an open mind is better than a closed one…but a Christian is to “put on the mind of Christ.” Live and you are alive, live in Him and you may become fully alive. Let live is much better than kill or destroy, but much, much better is helping others to meet the fountain of life so that they may live and live abundantly.
Finally, if you wish to talk about something it is always best to study it carefully. If the Cursillo is from God then all our talking against it is futile. If it is not from God, then it will go away as all other things not of God do. If it is from God then it would be best to try to understand it from the perspective and wisdom of those persons closest to the gift. That would be the founders, not those who come much later and often wish to change things to “improve” them.
Love,
Charley
Thanks for the additional comments, Charley. I noticed this statement from you: ” If it is not from God, then it will go away as all other things not of God do.” Generally speaking, in this fallen, wicked world, I see many evil things getting worse and worse – not going away. Especially as we get closer and closer to Christ’s return. And I’m puzzled by your statement that ALL things not of God go away. But to give you a fair hearing, could you perhaps give me some examples of things that went away because they were not of God? God bless you – Dave
Hi Dave, thank you for your blog regarding Cursillo weekends. I first came across these through the Walk to Emmaus program operating in my church. I was concerned by the lack of information given about it as I really want to know what I am going to before going. I don’t condone going to a secretive type of event on the words of even a trusted friend. I need to assess it myself first.
It took a while but eventually found that the methods used at Emmaus were very similar to those used in cults. The theological position of Emmaus is certainly close to the Catholic Church but without the manipulative methods, it is easier to spot errors. I regard the danger of Emmaus and other Cursillo weekends is the methods used disarm and disengage the cognitive processes, which cause errors to slip by unnoticed.
For this reason, I refuse to go to Emmaus or any other Cursillo event. I come from an Anglican tradition background but I left this church because of the emphasis on liturgical traditions and infant baptism. I now attend an Evangelical church which is why it surprised me by members embracing the Walk to Emmaus program. It has certainly caused hurt and division to some and this is largely ignored by the Emmaus community as a whole.
Thanks Philip for sharing your experiences, and for verifying the concerns of others about these three-day weekend experiences. I would avoid any event which is ecumenical (associating with Catholics and/or members of denominations in the NCC). Looking back, I cannot even recommend ecumenical gatherings as seemingly innocent as Promisekeepers and the Billy Graham crusades (after 1957 when Billy Graham began allowing NCC denominations to participate). I don’t understand how born again Christians can think they are having true fellowship with nonchristians – individuals who don’t believe in being born again through repentance. As the Bible passage says, “what fellowship hath light with darkness?” (Hopefully I’ll add more to this response as I have time.) God bless you – Dave
I think Christians who are truly born again sometimes have a naïve and misguided attitude towards ecumenism. It can be thought of as a way to unify different denominations under the name of Jesus which sounds good but that is not the position of the Catholic Church. Their definition and goal is to bring ALL Christians under what they would call Christ’s church of Roman Catholicism. Other denominations and non-Catholic Christians are deemed to have separated from the original church and are not receiving the full benefit of “the all embracing means of salvation”.
Such thinking is at odds with Scripture so there can be no unity even on the what ecumenism actually is.
This seems lost on those who are born again after they have gone to the Walk to Emmaus weekend and to me this has happened because they apparently have had a wonderful experience there. But what they don’t seem to get is that the experience was as a result of manipulations and was contrived and therefore, at the very least, was a questionable one.
Great points, Philip. I see various stages or types of ecumenism, of which ecumenism with Catholics is a major one:
Ecumenism with denominations in the National Council of Churches
Ecumenism with Catholics (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc.)
Interfaith ties with nonchristian Jewish groups
Interfaith ties with Islam (so-called “Chrislam”)
Interfaith ties with other religions, New Agers, Mormons, etc. etc.
Ultimately what compromising Christians are headed for is the One World Religion of the Antichrist. The answer, I believe, is separation. I believe born again Christians should only extend “the right hand of Christian fellowship” to others who hold to the Five Solas of the Reformation. All others should be viewed as nonchristians and witnessed to in that manner. (Personally I prefer the confrontational “Law as Schoolmaster” evangelistic method taught by Ray Comfort.)
Thanks again Philip for your great comments. God bless you – Dave
Interesting comments by Phillip and Dave,
I happen to know a good deal about the Cursillo. Of course the actions of many individuals and groups are far from the original intent of the Cursillo’s founder, Eduardo Bonnin. This is sad, but then I have faith that God is in control and will, because He has already don so, win the victory for all His children. I have been reading 1John lately and the discussion reminded me of what Jesus’ beloved disciple had to say about some of these things, especially the antichrist. Here are a few verses (but they whole book is so much better) I do not know what version of the bible you use but those below are from Biblegateway’s KJV.
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
Also, I am not sure of Phillip’s credentials but I certainly disagree with his take on the Catholic Church’s position on ecumenism as well as the definition of it that is operative in the RCC. All of these things are interesting, but not extremely important to me. I am an RC because of my history. Phillip and Dave are what they are because of their history. One of these days we will all three be gone from this earth. I hope (and I mean that with all the meaning that the word hope has, that when that time comes we will all be in the same place, praising the Lord with great joy. While I am here I prefer to treat each person as my brother, accepting him for who he is and sharing with him who I am. I trust in God that that is exactly what He wants me to do.
Love,
Charley
Thanks for your comments, Charley. I was just thinking today, I have a number of Catholic (RC and Orthodox) acquaintances who strike me as very nice people. But their beliefs and practices have caused great harm to born again Protestant Christianity. Again, my sticking point is the Five Solas of the Reformation. And for me, biblically sound doctrine (holding to the Five Solas) trumps “love for our fellow man”, “the brotherhood of man”, ecumenism or whatever you want to call it.
Look at it this way: Christians like myself believe that those who are not born again through repentance and do not hold to the Five Solas are headed for eternal torment in Hell/the Lake of Fire (see John 3:16 and the rest of John Chapter 3). Now if we did NOT warn these people, then we would not be loving them. I.e. true love is “tough love”, disagreeing with them and warning/confronting/witnessing to them. I can’t close without saying: I believe the true way to salvation is found in the Five Solas as explained here among other places: http://tollelege.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/the-five-solas-of-the-reformation-by-james-montgomery-boice/ (I am looking for more detailed articles and online books explaining the Five Solas from a born again Protestant position.)
As far as the salvation process itself (i.e. becoming born again), it involves repentance from sin and accepting Christ’s sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. I do not believe becoming born again can be equated with baptismal regeneration. For Protestants like myself, baptism comes after repentance and salvation. It is “an outward witness of an inward change”. God bless you Charley, and thanks again for your comments – Dave
Thank you for your response, Charley. My take on the Catholic position on ecumenism is what I have gleaned from the Vatican’s edict on ecumenism. It is clear that the Catholic Church deem all other denominations as having separated and are not receiving the “fully” from the means of salvation. I accept that not all Catholics believe this but it would certainly seem to be the official position of the Catholic Church.
I would certainly agree with you in that sure hope that we will meet in glory if not on this earth. But the hope is in the certainty of salvation of Jesus paying the price for sins and not in belonging to a particular denomination, being baptised or performing certain rituals. I view these neither as means to salvation nor means of grace. And that is the subtle deception being perpetrated by the Walk to Emmaus program.
Blessings,
Philip
Thanks Phillip,
Can you give me a specific reference to the “Ecumenism edict” you mention? I happen to be very interested in ecumenism, It is an uphill battle on many fronts, but as the readings from today’s Catholic Lectionary point out…”who, indeed is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”
I do know that recent popes have proclaimed ecumenism a moral imperative, and have done many things to advance the cause of brotherhood, especially in divided Christianity. Have you read any of Cardinal Ratzinger’s works on Communion?
While there is no doubt that many Catholics, including leaders of the hierarchy, often seem to hold the notion that being a “member in full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church” is essential for salvation. Many other Christians. non-Catholics, are very quick to claim that exactly the opposite is true! I prefer to do the best to obey Jesus’ commandment (Love one another as I have loved you) and let Him be the judge when the time comes.
I always try to listen to these things in what I believe is the Spirit of Jesus. To me He always accepted everyone who came to Him as a fellow child of His (Our) Father. In following Him I make it my aim to do what I can to befriend every person I meet, especially fellow lovers of Jesus, the Son of God.
Here is why I am interested in this little dialog about Cursillo. I have found in my life and in the witness of Eduardo Bonnin that the Cursillo (as he understood and drew it up) is the best tool or method that I have seen or can imagine to advance that simple agenda. It is “Make a friend, be a friend, lead your friends to Christ.”
The fact is that the Cursillo (which still flourishes close to the ideal in Mallorca) was long ago hijacked by those with the separatist agenda. “Make a friend, be a friend, lead your friends to the _________ Church.”
The greatest joy of my life has been the discovery that He is working overtime in many of the splintered movements that arose from this “separation” mentality. One thing seems very certain to me and it is something Eduardo pointed out in the 1950’s. Loving others as He did brings the most amazing diversity of people together, Love leads to communion. Trying to enforce conformity does the opposite and leads to division and all the sins of Galatians 5. Eduardo always urged Catholics to foster acceptance of diversity and of each other. That is what the true Cursillo is all about.
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley, I’m responding to my own post because I can’t find a reply button to yours.
My apologies, when I wrote “edict”, I meant decree. For some reason I had edict on my mind (I can’t even claim old age yet!).If you google “Vatican decree on ecumenism”, it should be at the top.
In it, the “Catholic Principles On Ecumenism” says: “Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life – that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is ‘the all-embracing means of salvation,’ that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.”
To me, this is clearly stating that all Christians should join the Catholic Church in order to be blessed with Christ’s unity and benefit fully from the means of salvation. I cannot agree with such a statement.
Regarding my “history” which you referred to in another post, I am from a Protestant Anglican background, and my wife is from a Catholic background. We each separately and before we even met, decided that our respective churches were emphasising the wrong messages as regards our relationships with God, Both denominations focused a lot on liturgy and traditions such as baptism and the Eucharist as means of salvation and means of grace. We both left our churches and were attending different “Evangelical” style churches when we met. We now are members of another “Evangelical” church and were largely happy there until the Walk to Emmaus program made its way into it. We have seen a definite shift and some division since then.
I have spoken to and corresponded with a number of people that I regard as true born again believers, who have attended WTE and who have been deeply hurt by the methods and attitudes occurring during and after the weekends. On these same weekends, there were those who thought they were wonderful so it isn’t that the organisers and teams were doing anything different.
When I examined the methods that were being used and compared them to methods used at cult weekends, I found them to be similar in a lot of respects. That really explains to me why some find it “awesome”, to use that word, and others were deeply hurt and felt disrespected by it. My research has taken a lot of time simply because getting to the bottom of what was happening meant disregarding opinions and trying to find un-biased information on it. But I finally found myself agreeing with those deeply hurt. The methods are not designed to respect those who question and test what is being done and said, which is a Biblical mandate. Indeed, the initial talk on the Thursday tells participants NOT to do this until after the weekend. But by then it’s too late – they have been subjected to all the manipulations and joined the “Emmaus Community” at that stage.
Blessings
Philip
Thanks Phillip,
I am aware of the Vatican Document. It was written in the 1960’s and was at that time a truly amazing step forward for all of Christianity, and from more current “official” documents of the Catholic Church much more progress has been made since then. I say this because I am so aware that we are all brothers in Christ. Pope John Paul II published an encyclical “Ut Unum Sint” in 1995. Here is an excerpt that helps explain why I am interested in ecumenism:
________________
No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God’s help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?
I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.
Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people’s minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
——————————
I am just one small person who feels invited by Jesus to be a “fisher of men”. I know very clearly that He loves each person and I believe that He passionately wants each person to know this. All of the other things, while very important, are quite secondary in my opinion to helping people know this. The fact that folks who claim to be His followers are so divided and antagonistic toward each other is simply one of the many obstacles to all those who are far-away from Him. I have concluded that healing this dis-union is a priority for Him. I am well aware that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life…not me. So I hope to continue friendly dialog with everyone and trust Him to change all hearts and minds (including mine!) as He sees fit.
My interest in Cursillo is because I have been involved in many things official and unofficial over the past 40 years. Nothing I have found or can imagine comes close to the Cursillo (when implemented as intended by its founder, Eduardo Bonnin) as a tool to help build Christian friendship. Unfortunately Cursillo is seldom implemented as intended. My book “Common Sense” is part of my effort to address the Catholic Cursillo in the USA. The distortions and un-Christian behavior you mention are just that and are completely foreign to the “primitive” Cursillo of Eduardo. Fortunately there is a world wide gradual growing awareness of this in many of the Cursillo related movements. I believe that this is a work of the Holy Spirit in our time.
Thanks again for the comments, Charley. I won’t say too much in this ecumenism discussion thread, since you and Philip are carrying on a good insightful discussion here… I just wanted to say, I didn’t realize until now that you had written a book about Cursillo. I found your website, which helped me see more clearly where you’re coming from: http://www.he-is-love.com/amenities.html God bless you – Dave
Thank you Charley for your responses, not just to me, but to others here. I have read the encyclical you quoted from and agree that it is at great pains to stress unity and reconciliation of all Christians. However, it also reinforces the position that the Catholic Church is the one and only church receiving full benefit from Christ, clinging to the notion that the Papacy is Christ ordained. To me, it is still saying FULL unity is only possible when all Christians are reconciled to Christ through the Catholic Church.
I find that it is in this context that I must place ecumenism as understood by the Catholic Church. It is not about each church having equal validity, authority and blessings under Christ, but all churches except the Catholic Church falling short of Christ’s authority. The Pope is still understood to be Peter’s successor as authorised by Jesus.
This is just the first vital obstacle that MUST fall before I could even consider ecumenism as a true attempt at unity. Even if all other churches were acknowledged as equal, they would have to acknowledge in return that the Papacy is Christ ordained. This can never happen.
Consequently, if Cursillo is ecumenical as defined by the Catholic Church, it too must ultimately recognise the authority of the Papacy as instituted by Jesus. That is again the first vital obstacle to true unity. No matter how much this is pushed to one side, it is still one of the huge elephants in the room.
However, each person has the right to make up their own minds on this and that means each person has the right to question and test all things against Scripture. That means all Christians should be free to attend Walk to Emmaus or any other Cursillo type event.
The problem I have with that is that many of methods used by Walk to Emmaus and other Cursillo type events, such as Tres Dias, are used by cults under similar conditions to psychologically manipulate and entrap participants into a group. That is not being respectful to a person’s right to question and test. If these manipulations were removed, people would be free to spot any doctrine contrary to their beliefs. But being “love bombed” by the community in a cloistered environment and using an intensive schedule, telling people NOT to evaluate until afterwards and getting them to be obedient to everything they are told to do, eventually joining the community are cult type methods (they are just some of the methods used). They have the effect of not allowing the cognitive process any room to engage.
I consider this a form of subterfuge and it ultimately harms true unity. Jesus does not need such programs to unify. He is God and through the Holy Spirit, He brings true unity. But if that happens, it won’t be under the authority of the Catholic Church because that will give it the definition of Christ’s true church and not those reborn by the Holy Spirit, irrespective of baptism, denomination or sacraments. They are THE true and original church as ordained by Jesus, not any particular denomination.
Does it surprise you that I agree with you 100%? Well I do, at least if I understand you correctly.
As for the Cursillo, I abhor all the abuses you mention, and many more that I have seen. The fact is that so did its founder, Eduardo Bonnin. In 1981 I moved to Texas from WV. There the Cursillo was much different and quite open to all persons interested in Encountering Christ. No doubt many mistakes were made, we are all human, but they were not institutionalized. We also knew very little about Eduardo or his understanding. After a few years, prompted by some of the same concerns you mention, I too left off participation in the Cursillo exercises until about six years ago. When I came back I felt it was at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I have come to think that He wanted my help in changing things.
I can find no fault at all with those who stand against the activities you mention, and I see the same types of things in many other places in many other Church groups. I just have not found anything that if done correctly seems to me to have the promise of making this better than the “primitive” Cursillo does. The real wonder is that I see things changing, ever so slowly of course, in many of the Movements. I have been in touch with national and world leaders of several of them and am truly awed by how God is working.
As for the pope, and the Church, all I can say is that Jesus is here, the kingdom is at hand. People too quickly forget that His kingdom is the one where the reigning monarch is the most humble servant. Definitions are things men agree on to try to understand each other. For me they always fall far short when applied to things of God. Take numbers for example. You know exactly what I mean if I say one or I say two, but if I say infinity it is simply impossible for you, or me, to comprehend what I am talking about. Yes you can say it is what you have when anything is divided by zero, but What does that mean?
God is. Jesus is God. Every thing about God is infinite. Compared to Him and His wisdom “Nobody Knows Nuthin'” What everything I have experienced and everything I have learned suggests to me that He is my Father and I am precious to Him, and He is every other person’s Father, whether they know it or not, He Is.
As for the pope, I am not too interested in who he is or how he got to be pope. I am confident because God loves me that no man is pope without His consent. Now I often remind my friends that there is only one pope (at least nowadays) and that he is not the pope of the Roman Catholic Church, he is the pope of the world. I am awed that any man would accept such a burden. In a certain sense we are each responsible for one another, but the pope has been given responsibility for all of us, not just Catholics. This is not the “position” as some Medieval potentate. In the past other popes have acted that way, but our times have been blessed with a string of really good and holy men.
Anyway, I would be remiss if I did not wish to share the joys I have received in being Catholic, but I am firmly commited that only by living in love and respect for every other person can I be of any use to Him in bringing about His ultimate goal of one big happy family. That is my personal definition of what the goal of Ecumenism is. Basically if we all work to become one with Jesus we will wind up all being one together. If we keep arguing and trying to change one another even if we all become the same thing we will have no assurance at all that we have union with Him, and that is the only unity that matters.
Finally I so agree that the scripture is the norm for me in understanding the gift of faith in Jesus that I am so graced to have. And for this I give all the glory to God
PS: to Dave, I am not able to accept “all the teachings of the RC” simply because I do not know them all. One that I do firmly accept is that Jesus is God and God is love. Everything else rests on that, in my mind. One thing that does bother me is that many folks condemn the Catholic Church for the sins of people who claim to be Catholic. Often people get their information from less than reliable sources. I know you do not think I am a Christian. That does not bother me because the only person whose opinion on that knows me a lot better. You might be surprised to know that Card Ratzinger, later pope Benedict, while teaching Catholic Bishops pointed out that being Christian meant being a follower of Jesus, not a member on any particular Church roster, or even a member of the Roman Curia. Anyway, as that reliable source of information on world religions once stated, “I am what I am…” I doubt I need to finish the quote. Hope it makes you chuckle!
Love,
Charley
Charley, note another response to you from Philip. He posted it as a response to his own comment. His response is dated 2015/01/13 at 1:55 P.M. These WordPress discussion threads can get confusing and complicated 🙂 … Forgive me if I have come across as judgmental by not addressing you as a fellow Christian, as Philip has done. I haven’t met you, so perhaps I have been a bit hasty. Let’s just say I’m speaking of people in general – Catholics, Protestants, whoever. If a person claims to have accepted Christ as Saviour and become born again through repentance, I would say this person is professing to be a true Christian. I pray you have taken this step – and are not looking to baptismal regeneration or infant baptism as being the point when you became a Christian. Most Roman Catholics I know insist baptismal regeneration is when they became Christians – even many Mafia members and other obviously evil people think they are Christians and bound for Heaven simply because they were baptized. To me this is totally unreasonable and unbiblical… I know I’m repeating myself somewhat – I just wanted to clarify I have no hard feelings against you personally. Thanks again for your comments. God bless you, and have a good evening – Dave P.S.: I do know some RC people who have become truly born again. However, most of them have left RC shortly thereafter – they cannot tolerate the RC teachings on Mary, Purgatory, etc. Most of those born again RC people who have remained in the RC Church have reverted to RC teachings, completely giving up born again “Protestant” beliefs.
Thanks, Dave,
Be sure that no offense was taken or even expected or noted in what you said. God loves me. What else matters? I just think that it is best to understand each other and what we mean by such important words. It is a little strange that I happened to click to a religious channel this afternoon and it was a Q and A with a panel of pastors answering call in questions. One of the questions was from a Lisa in Palm Bay Florida, “How can I be sure that I am saved?” Now the panel pastors gave very good answers, in my opinion, but I could not keep from rushing to the computer to send off an e-mail to my little sister. I told her that if she ever had that question she could be certain of the answer by just talking it over with Jesus. Besides, I told her, if you are still in doubt just know it because your big brother told you. You see, my sister’s name is Lisa, and she lives in Palm Bay Florida!!!! I expect there is more than one Lisa there, but I can’t wait for her response to my e-mail. God is good all the time!
Love,
Charley
Charley, my reading of your post is that in some way, you have your own understanding of belonging to the Catholic Church and if so, that is fine. But my problem is with the Catholic Church’s official position and that is clearly that it, and only it, is the one true original church and the Pope has the sanction of Jesus Himself. I do not accept that the Pope is the Pope for the world. That is giving him too much authority. For instance, he is most certainly NOT my Pope. I do not recognise his authority or right to decree anything for me. He is purely the head of the Catholic Church with no more authority than me for anything else. I do not acknowledge or recognise him as being God’s representative on earth or having a leadership role for the world.
I have no problem fellowshipping with Catholic people who have an understanding that they are saved, not because of baptism or being members of the Catholic Church, but by repentance and acceptance that Jesus paid the price of sin solely and COMPLETELY by His death and resurrection.
But it is my understanding that is not the official position of the Catholic Church. My reading of the teaching is that baptism saves a person. When a person is baptised, he/she becomes a Christian and is born again by the Holy Spirit. I absolutely disagree with that teaching. I would counter that there are people baptised in churches who are NOT Christian and not saved because they are trusting in a ritual/sacrament for salvation, not Jesus paying the penalty for their sin.
Regarding the original Cursillo movement, my research has shown me Eduardo Bonnin was a psychologist and that he combined psychological methods with Catholic theology to start Cursillo. It would seem that his intention was to provide an environment to open peoples hearts and minds to the message of Cursillo. However, that is not our job. Our job is to spread the message of the Gospel. It is God who opens hearts, souls and minds to His message, not us. He can do it in any environment. If we try to do it, it is manipulation. When God does it, no program can claim credit nor can we claim any credit. There is NO formula or program that can claim renewal or rejuvenation. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Personally I am fed up hearing about this program or that course which is claimed to be “life changing”. They are most certainly NOT. God is the one who changes lives, not courses or programs. If we experience life changing moments during a course or program, it is God who does it, not the program. To say otherwise gives too much prominence to manmade things.
The Gospel stands on its own. It does not need us to give it more “impact” by using psychological methods. These only lead to a false sense of joy and enthusiasm. One of the proofs of this as I understand it is that before follow up groups for Cursillo were formed, the effects of the weekends were relatively short lived – a matter of months. This led to a need for follow up groups to keep the enthusiasm going. That is what happens after psychological manipulations, not true experiences of God. Manipulations wear off but God doesn’t. Yes we may experience “dry” times during our lives, but they don’t happen mere months after experiencing Him in a real way.
I am sorry if I sound too hard on this but my research has shown me that the root of the methods used at Cursillo type weekends seems to be the very origin of those programs rather than methods introduced later. Psychology seems to have been used from the start for the purpose of influencing the state of minds of participants. The resulting enthusiasm stems from people reacting to the stimuli and not the message.
I hope I don’t come across too judgemental because, from your posts, I regard you as my true brother in Christ.
Blessings,
Philip
Thank you, Philip,
BTW I love your name!!! It must be, or at least it sounds like it is, derived from the Greek word for love. Also, Jesus called Phillip the “true Isrealite!” I assure you that nothing makes me happier than to hear that a person considers me to be a brother in Christ. As for what you said about the Cursillo in this latest post I do need to make one comment. I have done a great deal of research on Eduardo and the “primitive” Cursillo (which is still alive and well in Mallorca) I have travelled all over the USA, to Australia, and to Europe. I have talked with many people including national and world leaders of the Catholic Cursillo as well as other “spin-off” Cursillos, a number of them dear friends of Eduardo. I have also communicated with several authors, some with very negative feelings about Cursillo, who have written books and Blogs about Cursillo. What you understood about Eduardo is, I believe, incorrect. Sr. Bonnin was a devout Roman Catholic. His family was in the import export business in Mallorca and he worked, at least some of the time, in that business. Eduardo was well educated by the Augustinian priests in Mallorca and was an avid reader. He certainly read everything he could find about many subjects and was no doubt well informed about psychology. He was certainly always up to date on the most current theological and spiritual writings including non-Catholic thought. Most of all Eduardo was Christian. He was always a Spirit filled Christian. The Cursillo was the culmination of years of prayer and study for a very simple purpose he had in mind. He wanted to help his army buddies encounter Jesus. You see he had discovered that these young men, though nominally Christian, engaged in all sorts of behaviors that were not consistent with being Christian, behaviors that he had no interest in and that he declined to join them in. At the same time he realized that these boys had many values that seemed much more Christian to him than those of lots of Church goers.
Eduardo wanted to help these men meet Jesus. The Church was often not an option because they simply were not welcome there!!! How this all worked out to become Cursillo is a truly beautiful story, but what is more beautiful is the rest of his life. You see the Cursillo was “hijacked” by well meaning Church-people. The things that you object to, and I object more strongly than you do, became part of the Cursillo as it moved out of his sphere of influence. Eduardo opposed this things with amazing courage especially in light of the time (1950’s) but he always did so with the humility of a saint. He took every opportunity God granted him to state his case (for years he was not “allowed” to speak outside Mallorca unless a “priest/minder” accompanied him. He always stood very firmly and strongly against the abuses and distortions, but he did so in a humble and truly gracious manner. It was his style. The world leaders are only beginning to come to this understanding, but it is happening. The distortions and manipulation, as you correctly name them, come ultimately from a lack of faith. It is so very hard for us to let go and let God. But, as you point out, God is the only one who can change anyone. Jesus saves!!! He is risen as He said!!! His Spirit is with us!!!
So what are we to do? You will have to answer that question for yourself…with His help of course. I applaud you for standing against manipulation and use of psychological coercion and all of those distortions. As for me, I feel sure that, at least at this time, he has called me to do so from within the movement as well as from outside it. I have also concluded that the answer is in friendship. So I try to be the best friend I can to every person in the hopes that Jesus, who I know is hard at work converting me, will also be able to use me in some small way to reach the hearts of others He loves so much that He died for them. Remember that He went to the cross not for the “born again folks” and not for His disciples, but he went to the cross for those who were nailing Him to it. It is hard to get my head around that! He died for us while we were still sinners!!!
Love,
Charley
Charley, note Philip’s reply to you 2015/01/15 at 5:58 a.m. He posted the comment in reply to himself. God bless you – Dave
Thank you Charley, yes you are right, my name means “lover of horses” in Greek (not that I have any horses or have much dealings with them!).
I also hold my hands up and apologise as I see Eduardo Bonnin wasn’t a psychologist but someone who seems to have had a keen interest in psychology. I have been reading some of his thoughts on Cursillo but I’m not sure my position changes that he used psychological methods to manipulate the emotions of people attending Cursillo.
The fact that he had such success at invigorating people by a three day event automatically causes me to question what is going on just as it did when I first came across Walk to Emmaus. When I read my Bible, I don’t see the disciples operating or being told to operate according to a formula. They got results from just preaching the Word and the Gospel. That was because the message of the Gospel doesn’t depend on their methods but on God’s Word. If there was such a thing as a method more able to bring the Gospel to people than any other, it would be right up there in the Bible with baptism and the Lord’s Supper as the Lord’s own method. But there isn’t any “best method”.
When I try to find out what actually went on at the original Cursillo, I come against the same reasoning as I did regarding Walk to Emmaus – that it would be too hard to explain as it is an experience and I would have to experience it myself before I could understand. That means it is either God or manipulation. I believe I can say emphatically, based on Scripture, that it is not God. There was no course or event continuously used by Jesus or His disciples to bring His message to people. It happened in different ways and as far as I can tell, almost always in the open and in public.
I am also very suspicious when people claim their own concept and work as “its author is the Holy Spirit” as Eduardo Bonnin did in an initial explanation of Cursillo (Signs of Hope). Claiming the authority of the Holy Spirit has the effect of attempting to put up a wall of defence against critics. He may have honestly believed Cursillo is the Holy Spirit’s work but that doesn’t make it so. This continues in the Walk to Emmaus when the lay director claims the team is doing the work of Holy Spirit. I believe it is wrong for Walk to Emmaus to say that and so it is wrong for Eduardo Bonnin to say it also.
I see Cursillo as a Catholic answer to a Catholic problem. Eduardo Bonnin founded his Cursillo when he saw people not living according to their alleged beliefs. So he devised a course which I believe used his knowledge of psychology to give these people experiences so they would be open to whatever message he gave them. That message was Catholic theology. That is a far more believable explanation than it was the Holy Spirit doing it. I have no problem believing that He could do it but the Bible never shows Him doing it in that way. It is always through different methods and the only thing the same is the Gospel.
I fellowship in a church which has programs and Bible studies, prayer meetings and youth groups all centred around the Bible and what God has to say to us. We are a far cry from the people that Eduardo Bonnin was trying to change. We are not perfect but are a community doing as he would have wanted (in terms of living our faith). We do it without Cursillo which is why I am taken aback by the influence a Cursillo type weekend has had in my church. I take on board that you say you are even more against the methods used than I am but I am not convinced that the original Cursillo was substantially different to what is happening now. The effects seem to be very similar and the reasoning sounds the same.
Yes Jesus died on the cross for sinners so that whosever believes in Him and His saving work by His death and resurrection, shall have eternal life. Only those who accept that what he did was “THE” atonement for their sins will live eternally with God. They ARE, whatever denomination they belong to, the “born again” ones.
Blessings,
Philip
Wow! Phillip,
I see that we are so very close in our thinking!!! I am so glad to see that you have read “Signs of Hope” I assume you realize that it is a record of the interview (probably from a written Q&A) of Eduardo by the Vatican official assigned to investigate the Cursillo and determine (discern) if it was a work of the Holy Spirit as well as establish Eduardo’s role in its birth. Part of this was because Eduardo always stood firmly, though very humbly and obediently, against the abuses and mistakes that you and I both deplore.
I so wish you were here in Houston and a member of the leaders group here! But that is apparently not in God’s plan. I can assure you that I personally, since 1978 when I first made a Cursillo, have opposed any kind of manipulation, such as secrecy and so on. From what I have discovered about Eduardo, he did the same and from the early 1940’s onward! I did not know this until a few years ago when I discovered some of his speeches with the help of the Canadian Catholic Cursillo leaders.
Eduardo was well aware of Psychology and that is precisely why he was opposed to using psychological “tricks”. He knew that it was essential for people’s hearts to change. He believed that that goes for each and every one of us all the time. He was also certain that the proper change for each person was God’s own secret! What Eduard also was certain of, that so many of us, often very good dedicated and “faithful” people, are not so sure of, is that God Himself is constantly calling each one of us to this conversion process.
Now Eduardo knew that this can happen in many, many ways. He knew that Religion can and tries to bring many people to this process. His special understanding was from his own life that it was his personal close relationship as a beloved child of God that made it possible for him. He also realized that there were many who, for all kinds of reasons, found it very difficult, if not impossible, to come into the church, the religion, that was available at the time. He knew that each person has an innate thirst for meaning. He knew that this thirst was for God, the ultimate meaning. He knew that the Church organizations he was aware of were all trying to fill this “thirst.” His insight was that God was the only one, the Holy Spirit, who could actually do so. Eduardo, unlike some church people knew that he could never “conjour up” the Holy Spirit (remember Simon the magician in Acts?), so he opted to identify friends who might have become aware of this thirst and help to put them in a circumstance where they would be challenged to look inside themselves to find Him.
Eduardo also was well aware that unless folks were completely free, that is not manipulated, they could never be certain if they really had encountered God. His plan was to put some thirsty folks together. In his minds all the people team and “candidates” were really in the same boat. He once said that people fail to realize that Jesus died to set us free, but most people would much rather not be free and have people tell them what to do. He has also pointed out that people forget that if God completely revealed Himself to a person, all options, all freedom, would certainly vanish!!! The three days were not designed to present Catholic Theology or Doctrine, but to present the very simple idea that God loves each person and offers each of His beloved the opportunity to live a life of grace. The Cursillo then, for him, was not a weekend but a process that was intended as a life long method of orienting this “conversion” process by helping people grow in friendship with God and each other.
Phillip I so much love your last paragraph. I could not have stated it any better. What you describe there is, to me, what the life of grace is all about. It is living and sharing with a group of friends what is happening in your relationship with the ultimate friend to help each other persevere in the process, the deepening friendship with Jesus that is described in so many places in the Bible…think of the Song of Songs!!!
Finally I so hope that our dialog can continue. The only difference we have is in what to do about Cursillo!!!! You feel called to stand against the un-Christian distortions and those who use them in order to protect your friends and other people. That is wonderful and I applaud you for it. I find He has called me to stand against the un-Christian distortions and befriend those who use them, and help them see Him and Him alone to find the truth, and then encourage them and help them bring the Cursillo a little closer to it. I feel this way because I think He still wishes to use Cursillo, as Eduardo intended, to reach out to folks He loves who are not in the good warm place that you and your friends seem to be. It is a pastoral thing, seeking the lost sheep! My personal experience is that only in seeking the lost do I begin to realize how lost I am. It is so beautiful when He finds me and brings me home. And it seems to get more beautiful each time!!!
Love,
Charley
Thank you Charley for your kind and gracious words. The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced of your honest and earnest love for God and people.
At this point, what I would like to ask is do you have any information on the activities that take place during the original Cursillo? I am wholeheartedly in agreement that “you cannot conjure up the Holy Spirit” and so I am curious as to what exactly are the methods Eduardo Bonnin used and as they are still being used in Mallorca, how do they differ from other Cursillo weekends such as Walk to Emmaus and Tres Dias? It is never good enough to me if the answer is “you have to go to know!” or “Don’t anticipate, participate!” So can you tell me what are the methods used? It seems just as difficult to find this information just as it was for me to find out about Walk to Emmaus!
I would still question as to how Eduardo Bonnin could account for almost always being successful in Cursillo? I still don’t accept God works according to a schedule or program i.e. a “conjuring up” during the program bringing about a high level of “success”.
I do respect that you feel called to change Cursillo from within. I just don’t know what changes can be made that would make it acceptable to me. If you drop all the manipulative stuff, I find the 15 talks lacking in real substance – nothing that I don’t know already or may even disagree with. I would also find a weekend of compulsory 15 talks to be controlling and disrespectful. It’s not how I really learn.
I’m sorry that we are not close geographically to discuss this face to face as I thrive on such discussion. I am in Ireland so the distance is just a bit prohibitive! You are unique in that you are the first person with ongoing involvement in Cursillo to fully acknowledge to me the manipulations used and the harm they obviously do. I have come across plenty of people who think the alleged good to many over the harm to a few justifies the methods used. That itself is a cult type attitude (the ends justifies the means).
However, we may reach a point of agreeing to disagree but that is okay with me – I know there is no animosity about that.
Thank you again for your graciousness and patience.
Blessings
Philip
Wow, Phillip….Something very special is going on here. I am quite certain it is a Work of the Holy Spirit. First, let me answer your questions about info. Most of Eduardo’s legacy is in Spanish and is extant in his office in Mallorca. Mary and I spent two weeks in Ireland and five days in Mallorca in Sept-Oct. I have a number of contacts I can point you to, but would prefer not to do so in this forum. You can locate me via my website and via my e-mail address that is there. Perhaps we could even Skype! There are two places that literature (like the Signs of Hope) are available. One is FEBA and the other is the Catholic Cursillos of Canada (CCCC). You can google them for websites or link from mine or some other official Cursillo one. We attended an Ultreya in Dublin, and we also have a friend who is one of the World leaders. She lives in County Roscommon.
What I think Eduardo was trying to say is absolutely true. You see his intention was not to get people to act in a certain way. His intent was just to help them meet Jesus. When that happens, real miracles, the little kind like I believe our little dialog has been, are bound to occur. Often people do get emotional about this. I know I do. Our encounter has brought a few tiny drops to my eyes!!! But that is not the important part. What Eduardo was reflecting on is the fact that many people persevere in this personal “walk” with Jesus. While in Mallorca we attended the Palma Ultreya. about 250 people came out at 9 PM on Monday evening for an hour and a half, just to share in little groups with each other how they had seen the Holy Spirit at work in their lives in the past week. Then they listened to a simple personal testimony from a young lady visiting from Mexico, followed by a few brief comments by some of the leaders (very brief). Then all (or most) stopped in the chapel for a few simple prayers and to sing “De Colores”. They do this every Monday. No pressure, no manipulation, just folks sharing the little miracles of daily life. All the religion and teaching and so on is left to the Church, or churches.
That is why, as you have quite correctly noted, the 15 talks lack “real substance.” You see Phillip, I believe, and I think Eduardo saw things the same way, all the “real substance,” stuff is important, very important, but there is something that is so much more important. It is so important that all the rest is simply meaningless with out it. God is real, alive, close, and passionately in love with each person. Believe me, there are many folks who have a good idea of the other things even without the thing that Jesus shared with Mary and tried to explain to Martha, “the better part.” That is why Eduardo fussed all the time about the distortions.
So how can Cursillo change to be better? Go back to its origins! It is about the FUNDAMENTALS, and what are the FUNDAMENTALS? They are the things every Christian who ever was, is, or every will be must agree on. Everything else is not fundamental, no matter how good and important it is!
Love,
Charley Green http://www.he-is-love.com/
Thank you Charley,
It’s shocking you were in Ireland so recently and I missed you!!!! Just joking, Ireland isn’t that small!!
I will contact you via your website in due course (give me a few days to think on things first). I don’t believe Cursillo is something I want to be involved in or to associate with but I’m interested in finding out details about it (if only to make sure I am best informed to tackle the Walk to Emmaus issues).
I am certainly encouraged that you see the harm in the manipulations as I do although I would place singing “De Colores” as one of the problems I have as it isn’t one of the fundamentals. My wife was just now (as I type this) reading to me from the Irish Walk to Emmaus website where bulletins are signed “De Colores”. So cliquish and exclusive!
I don’t find it in scripture, so it is unimportant to me as anything significant regarding my relationship with God or any work of the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes it is the little things that raise my antennae when trying to get to the bottom of something that is portrayed as wonderful. I tend to ask “why is THAT so important? It isn’t the Gospel so why not just drop it?” I don’t often quote theologians but I will quote one now – “Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.” (CH Spurgeon)
However, I look forward to finding out more and maybe I will see the original Cursillo as at least not manipulative. Don’t expect me to agree with you or any teaching of Cursillo but if people attending can have time and space to question what it is happening and what is taught and said, allowed to judge it AS IT HAPPENS rather than being told NOT to prejudge, then they are free to make up their own minds about it. It’s sad to me that those who have attended Walk to Emmaus were not given such respect and many have swallowed it regardless, those who didn’t left like failed experiments.
Dave, Thank you so much for your blog and your stand against false teaching and apostasy. I am greatly encouraged when I come across websites like yours. There are so many “wolves in sheep’s clothing” coming into churches that we as Christians need to watch out for. I will continue to check this thread from time to time and may “dip in” again in the future.
Blessings to you both,
Philip
My thanks too, Dave. This little dialog with Phillip has been a wonderful grace in my life. I will also check out for now, but I cannot resist one little story about how God does work so much in the “simple things.” It is very humorous.
The first time I heard the song “De Colores” was at a funeral. There was an elderly lady in our parish at the time who insisted that everyone sing “Happy Birthday” to her at any church social or dinner she attended. It was a fun thing for all of us. This was many years ago. When she died I was able to get some time off to attend her funeral and at the end the community sang “De Colores.” At the time I was at best a hypocritical agnostic, and I told my wife about this odd song they sang. Now I could kind of get the color part about the rainbow and the many colors of love, but the last verse was about roosters, hens, and baby chicks. It seemed more than out of place. The word “weird” comes to mind. But then our friend had been a little eccentric.
About a year later I made Cursillo, and learned of course, that “de Colores” was its theme song. We always sang it at every “Cursillo” get together, sort of like an alma mater, so I just went along with it like everyone else. Several years later we moved from WV to Houston. TX. There the song, or at least some verses, were sung in Spanish. This made me feel much better as the song in Spanish is just plain fun to sing…and seems to make more sense, especially the chicken part. Several years after that, sometime in the mid 80’s, my interest and involvement in the formal activities of the Cursillo began to fade. Part of this was my difference of opinion on the rules and the elitism thing. Part of it was my certainty about a calling for Mary and me to devote time to our parish in Infant Baptism Preparation and RCIA. Also a part of it, probably the final “straw” was when the local leaders stopped doing a Saturday night serenade on the weekends. I have a guitar and was in the habit of helping by playing it at the serenades. “De Colores” was always the closing song.
Eventually the Cursillo, the weekend part, dropped completely “out of my life.” Then in 2008 we visited the Island of Kaua’i for the first time. I ran across the original “Red Dirt Shirt” store in Kalaheo. It seems Hurricane Iniki which devastated the island in 1992, had blown all the tee shirts out into the bright red dirt. The enterprising owner, unable to wash them white, decided to print them and sell them as hurricane souvenirs, “Red Dirt Shirts.” They became so popular that it started a little industry. It was a great idea for a souvenir for folks back home. Now it seems that the storm also knocked down the chicken coops for some world class fighting cocks. Kaua’i is now filled with the most colorful chickens, and lots of the red dirt shirts had chicken themes. Now these roosters can be truly obnoxious, crowing at any hour of the night or day. I complained about them all the time, but when I decided to buy a couple for shirts for my aunt and uncle in WV, because of a 3 for the price of 2 sale, I grabbed one for myself. The one I selected had a small colorful rooster embroidered on the left breast. Now at the time the Cursillo had faded to the very back of my memory. It never crossed my mind while in Kaua’i.
Several months after returning from Kaua’i I found myself drawn back to the Cursillo “leaders school.” There I met with quite a bit of opposition because of my understanding and desire to see some of these things change. One of those who stood most firmly in opposition found herself in charge of decorations for a “fund-raising” dinner and asked people to bring in ceramic roosters because she needed lots of them for table decorations. I chimed in, “I hate roosters. They keep you up all night in Kaua’i!” I suggested we use statues of saints or crosses or flowers instead. I had totally forgotten my red dirt shirt. The next week I was dressing to go to the “School of Leaders” meeting when out popped the red dirt shirt I had forgotten, rooster and all! What a miracle! A reminder that I needed to love everyone…especially those I differed with!
The facts, as Eduardo, himself often shared, is in how “De Colores” became the Cursillo “anthem.” It seems that the group of founders, all young men, wanted a song that was not a “Church” song that they could use to express the joy of life. You see the Cursillo was intended to attract folks who would come freely and be treated as free people. In 1940’s Spain coercion was the way of life and the church, as a Spanish institution, was part of the political power structure. Franco’s concordat with Rome gave him the authority to appoint bishops, and the clergy were on the state payroll. “De Colores” was a popular folk song at the time and one of the young men recommended it to Eduardo and the others. Their intent was not to go “against” the church, just make a very subtle point that God is a little bit bigger and slightly more important than any Church! The original song is a bit of a joyful love song (how appropriate for a Christian!) and of course the chick reference was a little too down to earth for the priests of that day (I think the reference was to the pretty young girls), ergo the roosters, hens, and babe-chinks, er… gallos, gallinas, y puellos.
My God is awesome, and it is in these tiny miracles that I, a poor little sinner, have come to experience His infinite grace, though I know I can only see the tiniest bit of it!!! As one trained in science I assure you that colors are such a wonderful metaphor for His grace. Every person who has been exposed to the subject knows that, while they seem to be infinite in number, the colors are just the tiniest slice of the electromagnetic “spectrum”. He is, He loves me. That is the miracle!!! Yes every church’s and every person’s idea of Him is important, and it is important to Him. But I humbly suggest that each of these ideas and understandings are also like the “colors of the rainbow.” Each is important. The rainbow would be incomplete without each one. But He is the “whole enchilada!” He, His Holy Spirit, alive in His children is what is fundamental to me!
love,
Charley
Thanks for the kind words, Philip. With all the criticisms I and other discernment ministries receive, it’s encouraging to hear from readers like yourself. Well that’s it for now. God bless you – Dave
Dave,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my little offering. I reviewed the link you suggested and find that I am in total agreement with the five solas. I would also like to say that my understanding of Roman Catholic teachings also agrees with each one of them. I have long suggested to folks that Jesus is the Word of God…not the words. So for me those two solas collapse into one. Scripture, and He speaks clearly to me through it, is always where I must go to verify my puny understanding of Him and His desires for me and my life. All other teachings of others are guides in my understanding of the one true source of His Revelation. I would remind you that it was Him working in the Church that put together the cannon, and it seems He is still working with us to resolve that issue!
One of the earliest father’s of the Church (long before Roman or any other grouping was established), St Irenaeus, said, “the glory of God is man fully alive.” To me this means that all the glory goes only to Him, since without life, I am nothing but a pile of dust and fading memories. All glory is His and His alone. As for faith I know that it is a total gift to me, though I also know that He, the giver, used many special people to bring me to the place where He could first touch my heart. He has since continued in many ways, often using the “works” of other believers to deepen that faith to the point where I now trust only Him. In a very real way this is grace in my life. His love for me demonstrated for His pleasure alone in the many wonderful gifts that He showers me with each and every moment…many of them through the lives of my brothers and sisters.
The one place that we might differ is in our understanding of the “evidence” for being born again. I suggest that words are words. Jesus is the Word. I have found that good people often disagree because of words they are trying to use to communicate with each other about God…Who is completely beyond anything that words can ever communicate. At the same time I have often found that when people honestly share and honestly listen as each one does his best feeble job to express his experience of the One who transcends all experiences, when this is done in friendship and with loving acceptance, and when the ultimate judgment of each other is left to the one and only Judge, good things happen.
Again, I thank you Dave, and I am so truly awed that you are concerned about the salvation of others. I absolutely agree that you would, in my opinion, be remiss if you were unwilling to share the truth He has revealed to you that you feel has implications for the eternal lives of your brothers. Thanks for all you do…but the Glory is all His!!!
Love,
Charley
Charley, thanks for your response. Lots of good thoughts, but I would question your perception that RC teachings are in accordance with the Five Solas. Fact is, the Five Solas were developed by the Protestant Reformers to address errors they saw in RC teachings. Google the search string [“Catholic” “Five Solas”] and you will find various RC articles strongly criticizing the Five Solas.
Do you see any false teachings in the RC? One practice particularly vexing to me is Mariology – not only the veneration of Mary, but the additional step of elevating Mary to the level of Co-Redemptrix. This idolatry alone should be enough for RC members to renounce their membership and condemn the RC Church. I could list a number of additional false teachings in the RC church, such as Purgatory, baptismal regeneration, veneration of the saints, infallibility of the Popes and papal decrees, Church teachings viewed as authoritative as the 66 books of the Canon, and so on. None of these teachings just mentioned appear in the 66 books of the Canon – thus violating Sola Scriptura…
Some additional resources:
1) A Protestant link that further explains the Five Solas particularly in regard to RC teachings: http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/endofreformation.htm
2) A Protestant link that further lists the false teachings and practices Protestants (and former RC members) see in the RC Church: http://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings
Thanks again for your comments. God bless you – Dave. P.S.: Note the 01/10/15 response to you from Philip. He wrote a reply to his own comment, since he could not find a Reply button to answer your comment.
Thanks Dave,
I think there is no place that there is a greater misunderstanding among us Christians than with Mary, the mother of Jesus. Perhaps the only other one is the idea of the “Communion of Saints.” This is all such an area of faith that is truly super natural. There are just few natural things that can help us discuss it. I will try to share my understanding. I consider, as Catholics mention in the prayers at a Catholic funeral, that the bonds between beloved friends are not completely severed at death. Now, knowing how self-centered I am, it is hard for me to think that a person in the arms of Jesus would have much interest in those left behind. Nevertheless, over the years I have had experiences that do seem to “prove” to me that they do. For example, 11 years ago my daughter died of Leukemia at the age of 34. We were (and perhaps still are) very close. She loved to bake the best chocolate cookies for me. At the time of her funeral they turned up everywhere. Several years ago they turned up under very special circumstances at a retreat I was attending, and they still do from time to time. The details are not important, and I have no way of knowing if she had any role in them at all. Perhaps it was just coincidence. Perhaps it was just my Lord and Savior’s way of letting me know she was with Him. Either way it is a bond that is still there in my heart.
My personal devotion and relation with Mary is similar. Real or imagined, she has been a very good friend to me. When I have a sick friend, or someone in trouble I am not reluctant to ask for their prayers. I feel the same way about Mary and other saints. If it is a delusion I feel it is pretty harmless, and I am never concerned that the One who is self-less above all others would ever be offended by my love for and devotion to any of His other friends…especially His mom!
Thanks for sharing, Charley. Sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter – this is something one never gets over completely. You are in our prayers… As for my previous question, I’m assuming from your comments that you don’t see any false teachings in the RC Church. I appreciate your kindness and patience, in not being offended and not taking our criticisms of the RC Church personally. For now I’ll try to lay off my comments on RC doctrine, while I research RC responses to Protestant criticisms of RC teachings. Hope that makes sense.
I must point out again, though, that I have a very narrow definition of Christianity. I believe only those who become born again through repentance (what I would call the “Protestant” way as opposed to baptismal regeneration particularly infant baptism) are Christians. Christ Himself said that the road to Heaven is narrow, and that few would find it (Matt. 7:14). So I bristle at your thoughts of mending fences between RC Christians and Protestant Christians, when I don’t even define RC adherents as true Christians.
In times past I viewed RC more favorably. But after reading various discernment ministry articles regarding RC, I have changed my position significantly. BTW, I have some close acquaintances who grew up in the RC Church, but left it because they could no longer accept its teachings regarding Mary, Purgatory, the saints performing miracles after their deaths, etc.
Again, thanks again for your patience Charley, in taking on our criticisms and responding to them kindly. Well that’s it for now. God bless you – Dave
Charley, I am deeply moved by your experience and account of your daughters death. I have lost loved ones and had been in a state of inconsolable grief for a long period of time. In my experience, I would agree with you in that the Lord does give us reminders that He loves us and those we mourn. I believe He doesn’t give all the answers but just enough to comfort and reassure us of His love.
Blessings and love,
Philip
Amen, my brother.
I have been involved in a local Tres Dias chapter until just recently. I do not think it is an outright cult, but it does use techniques that are highly suspect, and the “results” are short-lived. After my candidate weekend, I served as a team member on 5 additional weekends. In full disclosure, I was “banned” from further participation by the President of the local Secretariat because I questioned how things were done in a couple of areas, and wouldn’t back down. Questioning of authority and the TD doctrine is not allowed. I take my “banning” as a badge of honor.
TD weekends do start with the candidates being driven to the camp. They are not allowed to drive themselves. Upon arrival, their gear is taken and stowed in dorm rooms, which are assigned in such a way that the candidate is forced to meet new people. No watches, clocks or posted schedules are allowed. The first night consists of being forced to make “new best friends”, followed by a late night chapel service, and then an enforced night of silence. The candidates are broken down by very long days (less than 8 hrs of sleep each night) daily morning Communion, lots of prayer and music, and many, many lectures, called “rollos”. Some of the speakers (Rollistas) are more inspired than others. There are roughly 15 rollos on a weekend. The concept of “palanca” is introduced (literally meaning “leverage”). Palanca consists of frequent hugs, backrubs, highly sugared snacks and sodas, love letters, and cheap gifts with agape love notes. As the sleep deprivation combines with the massive sugar intake and the lack of time awareness (or even what’s going on), the mood varies between light and deep. The result is that the candidates become emotionally vulnerable.
As the candidates soften up, they are broken down to emotional wrecks by various things. First, a prayer scroll is unrolled around them (as a group) that shows there are TD members constantly praying for them. Next, there is a foot washing, which was a vital and humbling part of Jesus’ earthly ministry. Saturday is the big day. There is a rollo called “Sacred Moments of Grace” which culminates in the passion of Christ. Very, very moving. I have seen candidates drop to their knees in tears. Later that night, after a formal dinner, is the “Serenade”. A large group of TD women members encircle the men and sing very moving music by candlelight (on women’s weekends, the men sing). Once again, candidates are reduced to tears. After, the candidates head back to the chapel to confess what’s on their hearts. They also write down their sins on flash paper, which is then nailed to a cross and burned. The result is that the candidates learn to forgive themselves and heal. On graduation afternoon on Sunday, the Community is on hand to applaud the candidates. The final result is that the newly-minted members are released for ministry, and are expected to become active in “4th day” groups, which are meant to keep the members honest, focused and committed. The 4th day group is advertised as the prime focus of TD.
My impressions? TD is NOT a cult, but employs questionable mind-control techniques to soften candidates up. The whole weekend is shrouded in secrecy, which is not Biblical. Eph 5:11 applies here (Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but expose them to the light of day). The “mountaintop high” that results is short-lived, and wears off quickly, once the new Pescadore (“fisherman” which is the term for a candidate after they graduate) gets back into a known schedule, their regular sleep cycle, and no more massive infusion of processed sugar snacks. And since TD is not for baby Christians, the candidates don’t learn anything new. The cloistered, off-balance approach is creepy as well. Also, since TD is an Ecumenical “ministry” individual church beliefs are melded together into a beast with no legs. The liturgy is overtly Catholic, such as frequent readings from “The Pilgrim’s Guide” and the daily Communion, given each morning. This is no surprise, since TD is a word for word copy of the Catholic program of Cursillo. My advice is to not waste your time on such a watered-down, ineffective ministry. Find one from your own church that is NOT ecumenical, and commit to that.The 4th day group is a weakness as well. In our local chapter (10 years old) there should be hundreds of Pescadores. But most disappear after graduation, never to be heard from again. Most are not comfortable with the blended, watered-down, ecumenical style, and simply walk away. Our salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, not slavish adherence to groups such as Tres Dias. Finally, TD does NOT tolerate members who question. As in my case, they are thrown out as rebels. Serve to Jesus our Lord, filled by the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God. Not to the glory of any movement, no matter how well-intended is seems.
Ok folks, I am going to make this short and sweet. I have been in Tres Dias for 12 years now. The “ONLY” reason there are secrets is so that it won’t spoil some of the great surprises of the weekend. We are told as new candidates and the sponsors of new candidates that if someone insists on knowing the so called “secrets’ to just tell them. It has been life changing for me, it got through to me some things that just wasn’t happening through my church, and may I say, I was born again in a Fundamental Independent Baptist Church.
People selling their possessions ! What ?! If they did, it is not something Tres Dias would promote one to do.
I do hope this has eased some fears of Tres Dias. I am a servant of God and humanity. Tres Dias gives me even more opportunity to serve others especially Christian Brothers who want to grow in their walk with Christ . They too, should become better leaders in their home church because of TD.
Hi Dale,
Here’s a link to an apologetics centre in Ukraine.
Click to access td_eng.pdf
They did an evaluation on Tres Dias (admittedly written back in 2001). However their findings were that they couldn’t recommend it on the grounds of the cult type methods used. Since they viewed these methods wrong for cults, they had to say they are wrong Christian ministries also.
I personally find this evaluation balanced and informative and agree with its conclusions.
Hi Phillip and Dale,
The man who founded the Cursillo (which eventually had many spin offs including Tres Dias), Eduardo Bonnin, was looking for a way to help his friends meet the real living risen Jesus, a person who he knew as a friend. He, with the help of his friends, personally developed the 3-day weekend experience as a way to introduce their friend, Jesus, to others who felt themselves far-away from Him. Of course meeting Jesus is a profound event, especially for a person who has never known Him or has somehow rejected Him.
The three days were just an introduction. Eduardo’s Cursillo was intended to be a life-long process of conversion, getting closer and closer to Jesus by doing the “one thing necessary, “love God and your neighbor.” In Eduardo’s cursillo there were no surprises, at least not man-planned ones. He trusted the Holy Spirit to provide whatever “surprises” He wished to.
As the Cursillo became a movement spreading around the world many people with perhaps not quite as much faith began doing things a little differently. Among them were all sorts of ways to “help” God “touch” people. Eduardo spent his entire life working, and praying to get folks to understand the Cursillo as he did in its simplicity and truth. This included doing everything Christian that he could think of to correct the kinds of errors that have rightly disturbed so many, many people.
Eduardo died in 2008. I believe he is still at work. Nevertheless, he did leave behind a legacy of his wisdom about the Cursillo. Much of it is available from FEBA, Foundation Eduardo Bonnin Aguilo, at http://www.feba.info
Bottom line–“The worst enemies of a Movement are those who promote it without understanding it.”
I was raised as a Christian and always attended a a non denomination, bible base church. I recently attended a Tres Dias weekend. I was skepical at first due to reading this article but trusted that the Lord was leading my husband and I to attend.
The weekend was a wonderful experience for both of us and there was not 1 single thing taught or said that compromised or went against the word of God! There is nothing evil involved and nothing to fear. Wether you are a pastor, bible scholar or a new Christian this experience is for everyone that loves Jesus and desires a more intimate experience with getting to know Him better. The reason to keeps things secretive is to avoid spoiling the experience and surprises for new candidates. I would encourage anyone who is on the fence to not hesitate. It was a great experience and ask the Lord to lead and direct you if you are uncertain about attending .
Elisa, thanks for your comments/observations. Just a quick question since I’m on my way somewhere: you mentioned you and your husband attend a non-denominational Bible based church. Would everyone in your church approve of Tres Dias? I’m just curious. The local churches and denominations I personally consider Bible based would run from Tres Dias – these churches are primarily Independent Baptist; they want nothing to do with any retreats that even hint of contemplation or ecumenism, or originated in Catholism. Well that’s my two cents for now – gotta run. Again, I do appreciate your sharing. God bless you – Dave
Just curious to know if Dave has attended any event like a Tres Dias or Cursillo? I have a little personal experience having “made” Cursillo in 1978, served on teams in WV, TX, and CA, as well as related events in Australia, Mallorca, and Canada, as well as years of study about the movement, etc. I believe that, like pretty much everything involving men, none of these things is perfect. No doubt all of them have had bad things done in their name by misinformed or bad intentioned persons, yet what I have observed is that many good things offset the bad. This does not excuse those who do bad things…their fate is up to God.
As for secrets and surprises, I agree with the founder, Eduardo Bonnin, that such things are unnecessary and can be counter productive. Anytime a encounters God there are bound to be surprises! Best for other men to just pray and share all they can so that when a person is thinking back there will be less of a tendency to think that the surprises were in anyway man-made.
I, from day one in 1978, have always answered as fully as possible any question anyone asked me about the Cursillo, including the weekend “surprises.” At first I did this because I did not know any better. I quickly came to the conclusion that I was doing the right thing. This has been confirmed for me many times by folks I have “sponsored” as well as in discussions with other team members and so on. Generally people ask things like “What is it like?” or “What will they expect of me.” I always point to the sky and let them know that, for me, only God knows what will happen, and He is the only one whose expectations really concern me.
Bottom line…it is all in His hands.
Love, Charley Green
No, Charley, I have not attended any Tres Dias retreats. I would not want to patronize or endorse any of these types of retreats by my attendance, for reasons I mentioned in my blog and other comments. BTW, thank you for all your comments and info on Tres Dias – your posts have been very informative to me (and others reading them as well, on both sides of the issue). God bless you – Dave
I wonder about the use of the term “Holy Communion” in the official schedule. Does that mean that Roman Catholics that are present believe that transubstantiatian has taken place with this communion?
There is far too much conversation here for me to have read it all. I read a few of the back-and-forth posts near the top. I will throw my 2 cents worth in. I gave my life to Jesus in a Baptist church when I was 10 years old. I am 51 now. I have been an active member of several different churches over that time–Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, Christian, and Independent. I have fellowshipped with various kinds of Christians besides those. I just attended a Tres Dias weekend as a candidate, which was hosted and run mostly by Church of God and Independent Pentecostals. Like everybody else who goes through it as a candidate, I didn’t know what to expect, because nobody would tell me. However, I was confident enough in my walk with the Lord that I was not scared that somehow I would be brainwashed or otherwise harmed spiritually. So I went.
It was a powerful, powerful experience. The reason for the “secrecy” is just what Jeremy said above. If you knew what to expect, you would anticipate the next thing coming in a chain of events rather than enjoy and soak up each event in its own moment. Each event is designed to build upon the one before it, until by the end of the third day, it reaches a zenith. By then, you can look back on the whole chain of events and see clearly why the weekend is structured the way it is, and it all makes sense.
I won’t tell you what you are missing, therefore. You will just have to go and experience it for yourself. But I will say this as an absolute fact: no one that went through the weekend with me as a candidate was unsaved. Everyone already was clearly walking with the Lord, although each one at his own level of maturity. This is why the salvation message was not presented; because it was understood and known for a certainty by those running Tres Dias that all participants were already followers of Christ. So it was all about discipleship, not about re-preaching the salvation message.
I could say more, but for now, that’s enough.
Thomas, thanks for sharing your experience. I Googled on various denominations participating in Tres Dias. This source (readable for free on the Google Books website) mentions various denominations – and states that Tres Dias is ecumenical: The Cursillo Movement in America, by Kristy Nabhan-Warren, pp. 98-99. Ecumenism is one of the things about Tres Dias that gives me cause for concern. Also, I think it was this same source that stated Tres Dias does not discuss doctrine, and does not discuss the salvation message because they assume everyone there is already saved. It seems to me, if Tres Dias is ecumenical, there is no way we can assume all attenders at the Tres Dias weekends are saved. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your experience – I’m always open to hearing experiences from all sides of this issue. God bless you – Dave
I’ve been keeping up with this thread for quite some time, and now it’s time to speak. I was actively inviolved in Tres Dias for several years until the light went off. TD, Emmaus, Cursillo, and the others truly ARE heretical. A pastor named Brian V Janssen, who himself was heavily involved in Cursillo, did his PhD work on the real story behind the movement, and wrote a book on it called “Cursillo, Little Courses in Catharsis.” TD and the others are heretical, are NOT scriptural, and WILL AND DO divide churches. You can go to his website, http://www.questioningcursillo.com to read the details. But he lays his case out to a “T”. Eduard Bonin, who designed Cursillo, intentionally made it to be psychologically manipulative, and what new Pescadores attribute to the Holy Spirit is the result of that manipulation, and it DOES wear off. This is not of the Holy Spirit. These movements also use the same methods as the Unification Church (the “Moonies”). Pastor Janssen proves that in his work.
As for the recent poster who said he wished he could tell more, but can’t, you all need to remember one thing: When did Jesus hide His ministry in secrecy? He never did, and neither should any of you. The “I can’t tell you” is not only anti-Christian, but it leads to a superficial elitism that divides, weakens, and destroys churches.
The whole TD (and the others as well) weekend, is intentionally designed to keep the candidate off-balance, weakening them, until they accept the “new” beliefs. It’s overly ecumenical, with a heavy focus on Catholicism. It employs New Age Spiritualism, Catholic beliefs, and only superficial scripture. If any of you would like me to lay out the weekend in great detail here, I would be happy to. As for those of you who are offended by my offer to “out” the process, please go read Eph 5:11 (“Have nothing to do with the deeds of darkness, but expose them to the light”).
In summary: Be very suspicious of these movements. They have been proven to not have a Biblical basis in their structure, and they DO in fact destroy the true Church. Run away from them. Run away as fast as you can, find a church that really IS Biblical, have nothing to do with churches that participate in TD or the others, and rescue your friends. TD DOES in fact employ cult-like methods. If TD was truly Biblical, how come God didn’t use it to build His church through the Holy Spirit for the first 2000 years? To think the TD method is of God and is effective, is to mock God. And God will not be mocked.
Thank you, Terry – excellent comments and very well put. And thank you for the lead to the book by Janssen. Funny, I was just wondering if anyone had written book(s) critiquing Tres Dias, etc. God bless you – Dave
In reply to Thomas Upchurch, I appreciate that you found Tres Dias a “powerful, powerful experience” but you highlight something, which for me, brings the Tres Dias experience into the realm of unethical manipulation.
You reason that purpose for the secrecy is “If you knew what to expect, you would anticipate the next thing coming in a chain of events rather than enjoy and soak up each event in its own moment.” That clearly says to me that the powerful, powerful experience is very much dependent on surprises determined by man and not God. If this is supposed to be an experience of God or a demonstration of God’s love, how come it requires such manipulation?
I’ve experienced God’s love and blessing in my life to such a degree that I feel no need to subject myself to a manipulated “powerful” experience. What God has blessed me with surpasses any surprises man can devise and I can look back safe in the knowledge that nobody manipulated His love and blessing in any way. It always happens spontaneously and can only be from God.
I could not say the same with a Tres Dias experience as the impact is dependent on not knowing what somebody has set up for me to experience. This cannot be God. Nowhere in the Bible is this method used or promoted. In fact I would say that the apostle Paul spoke against such methods in 2 Corinthians 4:2 when he said that we do not walk in craftiness or handle God’s word deceitfully.
I suggest that withholding information for the purpose of impacting someone with an experience is deceitful and underhanded, especially when people have a right to make an informed decision to go for themselves rather than so completely trusting the people inviting them when they are unwilling to reveal details.
It is a sad fact that cults abuse this type of trust by not allowing people to make informed choices about what they are being led into. By the end of a cult weekend, the people sucked into it can also look back on the chain of events and see “clearly” that it all makes sense. But they have been deceived by the methods of manipulation. Surely the body of Christ should not be involved in similar tactics.
Hi and thanks, Phillip. You might be surprised to know that the Founder of Cursillo, Eduardo Bonnin, said the same thing, and did so many times. He always urged those wishing to use the Cursillo not to do anything that could be deemed manipulative in any way. Unfortunately people seldom listen to something they do not wish to hear!!! Eduardo’s reasoning was identical to yours. He had complete faith in the Holy Spirit to act or not as He saw fit. What Eduardo did not want was someone experiencing a “moment of grace” and then later wondering whether it had just been something “arranged” by men. The three days was always intended by Eduardo to be an experience for people who were interested in possibly really encountering Jesus in themselves and in others. The three days is intended to be simply kerygmatic witness of the very basic fundamental reality that every follower of Jesus knows (but can always know more deeply) that God loves each person and that in Jesus Christ He has made himself, through the power of His very Spirit, available in loving friendship to each and every person He has created and sustained in this life. This kerygmatic witness was intended to come from a group (team) of people who were actually living or trying to live this reality, and had been praying earnestly for the “candidates” and were willing to continue in friendship with them for the rest of their lives…if the candidate wished to do so after the three days. It is as simple as that. Unfortunately it is so very hard for people not to try to find short cuts or better ways to cause effects that they have decided are what God wants to cause, rather than simply being willing to freely “lay down their lives” for their friends, the candidates and let God do as He does.
Sooo. in my experience most, but certainly not all, of the time Cursillos turn out good. For some persons amazingly so. None of us is perfect and all of us must continue to strive to be better. There are certainly some very bad things that have happened on weekends. And they should rightly be brought to light and we should do all we can to correct them; but this is just as true about people who read scripture, people who preach, people who teach and so on. All I can so to those who have been hurt is that I offer my deepest apologies and wish to support them in any way I can. To those who have not experienced the weekend I would encourage them to listen to God and do what He wants as best they can understand it. If one wishes to experience for himself, perhaps in deciding whether or not there is anything useful in the Cursillo, I would advise them to find some friends who can inform them and help them choose the right time and place. If those friends are secretive, I would urge a person to run not walk away from that experience.
Love,
Charley Green
Hi Charley and greetings in the Messiah. We meet again albeit back on this forum! I do think of you often and pray for you as my brother in Christ.
Thank you for your response to my comments. I appreciate your assertion that Eduardo Bonnin was against any secrecy regarding Cursillo. But there are currently two things which especially give me cause for concern. The first is I have been unable to find any information about procedures, schedules, teachings or activities which take place at Cursillo run as intended by Mr Bonnin. These are just the sort of details I found difficult to get regarding Tres Dias and Walk to Emmaus but with persistence, eventually dug out. With Mr Bonnin’s Cursillo, there are generalities which give no clue as to what actually takes place. If there is no secrecy, I should be able to pin down these details by research and without having to attend any meetings or events for myself or even asking previous attendees.
Since I am currently unable to find such details, this leads me to think that Cursillo run as intended by Eduardo Bonnin is even more secretive than Tres Dias or Walk to Emmaus. If this is not so, can you give a detailed summary of the 3 day experience as it would be run according to Eduardo Bonnin’s intent or a link to such information? I know you urge those who want to decide whether to go or not to ask someone who can inform them. But is it not better to make it easier for people to find such information in the public domain where there can be no accusations of secrecy? If I must go personally to someone who has previously attended to find such information, it is already somewhat secretive.
The second thing is that Eduardo Bonnin seemed to have been uncomfortable with any suggestion that Cursillo is his movement. That in itself can be taken as humility on his part, but then he asserted that the author of the Cursillo movement is the Holy Spirit. I find that to be a step too far. If he had said it was a joint effort on the part of others, that would be acceptable. But what he said places Cursillo on equal footing to the Bible. It could never be so. The fact is that whether he liked it or not, it was he and not the Holy Spirit who authored and founded Cursillo. To say otherwise is to make any criticism of it a criticism of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks again Charley.
Blessings,
Philip
Hi Phillip,
So good to hear from you again! I was clearing some old e-mails yesterday and actually ran across some of our correspondence from several years ago. Perhaps that is “of the Holy Spirit” or perhaps not. But I do believe He is very active and is constantly still at work and “authoring” many things. The problem, as I expect you would agree, is that He is not the only spirit at work! The difference with the Bible, to me in any case, is not that He authored it but that this authorship has been so carefully discerned by those He lives in for many centuries. Though there are many who might object to the Bible being the Word of God, the overwhelming opinion by the most obviously holy men and women is indisputable assurance that the Bible is His word, at least to any person wishing to take Him seriously.
As for your quest for information, I can give you lots of help there. The source is Eduardo Bonnin himself. His passing left behind his office filled with notes and records. His legacy includes a group of friends in Mallorca. No doubt they and their implementation of Eduardo’s Cursillo is far from perfect, but they lived with him and learned from him for many years. They are as close to the source as anyone can get. I know several leaders there who speak English and have been holding Cursillo de Cursillos in the English Language. They would be key persons to speak with there. They and other friends have formed an organization FEBA, Fundacion Eduado Bonnin Aguillo, to collect and preserve and disseminate his wisdom. You can find what is available on their website. They have always been most generous in sharing everything they can with me, and others as well. As for others, in the UK I know one of the leaders in Ireland who was a long time personal friend of Eduardo. Similarly I have a friend in Canada who was his friend and has worked diligently to translate, not just his words, but also his spirit and wisdom into English. Much of their efforts are available from the resource center of the Catholic Cursillos in Christianity website. As for the USA, it is only more recently and with great difficulty that the national leaders are coming to understand and embrace what has come to be called the “Charism” of Cursillo. Some books and information is gradually also coming online at the USA National Cursillo website.
I would be glad to share the names and contact info with you, but not in this public forum. If you would like them email me at charley@he-is-love.com .
In any event, no one is perfect, not even Eduardo. Only God is perfect. We, as per John 13:34-35, are challenged to help each other be better. In doing so I simply believe that the Cursillo, when implemented as close as possible to the mentality of the original “gift” or Charism can be very helpful. Just as certainly, when its methods or techniques are perverted to achieve personal aims of “good Christians” the results can be awfull. As Eduardo said, “It is much better to know that you believe than to believe that you know.”
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley, Thank you for your reply to my comments. However what I’m looking for is information in the public forum. I obviously respect the privacy of names and contact details but I believe that detailed information about procedures, schedules, teachings and activities should be easily sourced without having to resort to direct contact with those in the organisation.
Since you are a consistent champion for Eduardo Bonnin’s original Cursillo, you must know these details yourself. I’m in some ways “calling your bluff” on this Charley. You have said that Eduardo Bonnin spoke against secrecy and that the original Cursillo was not secretive. I would like you then to give a detailed summary of the original Cursillo and what it entails. In the Walk to Emmaus, people insist that it isn’t secretive but then proceed to withhold information so as not to lessen the impact. Is it the same for the original Cursillo?
I know that Dave is more concerned with any heresy that may be in these type of events than the secrecy elements but my contention is that it is far easier to instil false teaching into people’s minds by psychological and emotional manipulation than by direct preaching. And the impact of these manipulations is very much dependent on the person not knowing too much detail about what they are going to experience beforehand. Hence the importance of withholding information. But this is manipulating people into experiences in order to convince them of the teachings.
My concern is that even the original Cursillo may be withholding information from the public domain in order to make it difficult for the prospective participant to find it and for the organisers to control that information and thereby maximise the impact of the 3 days. Maybe it isn’t so but if it is, I would view this as both unethical and un-Biblical.
It does also concern me greatly that Eduardo Bonnin claims that Cursillo is authored by the Holy Spirit. This is the sort of claim I have found in many false teachings. When someone tries to justify their teaching, they can fall into the trap of claiming it is directly from God and so it is impossible to dispute it in the mind of the false teacher. Such claims can include that the person is “the Lord’s anointed” and then wag a finger at any who try to discredit him saying “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!”
Others have claimed books that they have written to be the work of the Holy Spirit and by doing so, point an accusing finger at any who would dispute what is written in them. It sounds the same for me regarding Eduardo Bonnin’s claim. He wrote it and founded it. God may indeed use it and if He does, that is His work, not the Cursillo. But God can use many things including preaching in bars to drunks (which I know He has used) to bring those into close relationship with Him. That doesn’t mean anyone should go and get drunk in public bars to know Him or that the bar is His handiwork.
Cursillo is not a new method devised by the Holy Spirit but a method invented by man and so will have many failings. The question is are those failings in conflict with the Holy Spirit’s true work?
Blessings,
Philip
Thanks Philip,
Let me touch on a few things:
I’m not sure how to direct you to more public sources than to the actual articles and books written by Eduardo Bonnin, or about him. As I hope I did not forget to mention in my last post I believe that FEBA, Fudacion Eduardo Bonnin Agillo, and the resource center of the Catholic Cursillos in Christianity are the most comprehensive. I have also published a book “Common Sense” as part of my efforts over the last 8 years to address some of the same concerns you have with the Catholic Cursillo Movement in the USA. I would be glad to send you a copy at no charge, but it is third hand and more focused on a local movement. “Common Sense” can be requested by sending me an email at charley@he-is-love.com.
I would love to do so, and in some ways have in “Common Sense” and a number of other places. I do not think a blog like this would be the right place for a detailed summary.
I believe that you are absolutely correct about manipulation. I would like to suggest that it is people who manipulate, and manipulators come in all forms and forums. I am against it, and every thing I have studied including the people I know in Mallorca also condemn manipulation and maintain that this was Eduardo’s attitude from the beginning of the Cursillo. But you will have to decide for your self.
All I can say is that if by original Cursillo you mean that of Eduardo, which is best discovered in Mallorca, I can assure you that you need not be concerned. The folks there have always been most honest and open to me on any requests for information and helpful any time I have contacted them. I encourage you to “come and see.” Take a trip to Mallorca. It is a beautiful island. And visit with them.
I believe that the Holy Spirit is at work all the time and is at work in His people, in each and every person. Of course He is not the only spirit. There is mine and there is no doubt the evil one as well. As to authorship of the Cursillo, Eduardo seems to have always taken a humble stance. He in no way diminished his personal role in the Cursillo but acknowledged that many were involved. In later years once Cursillo was well known and praised by many, some others claimed authorship, partly to maintain authenticity of their distortions. Wether he was correct or not is something each person must discern…with the help of the Holy Spirit Himself.
Yes, with God nothing is really new! Yet isn’t it so very God-like that He seems to work through us to bring about methods and so on to get His work done. He is awesome!
Love,
Charley
Hi again Philip,
I was reviewing some of my literature earlier today and ran across a pamphlet that might be of interest to you. It is titled Ideario #4 and is available from the US National Resource Center and probably also from the Canadian Center. A series of articles were published in the 1950’s in PROA, the Catholic Action Journal of Spain. They were written by the Mallorcan leadership which is close to saying by Eduardo Bonnin. At this time Cursillo was under severe sanction by the Bishop of Mallorca at the same time that Bishop Hervas (the prior bishop of Mallorca) was promoting Cursillo in Spain and South America from the Diocese of Ciudad Real. Many of the abberations, probably not the ones you are concerned about, that Eduardo was trying to correct with these articles were introduced by clergy or by people who were very strongly influenced by the clergy. Thus there is a great deference in the articles to Dr. Hervas and his writings about the Cursillo.
The US National office gathered these articles (at least some of them) and published them in Ultreya Magazine and later in the 1980’s in the Ideario series. The English translations leave much to be desired and there are numerous typos and grammatical errors, but it is one of the closest to the source of the original intended Cursillo of Eduardo (whether He was inspired or simply a holy genius or perhaps a bit of both) that I am aware of. #4 deals more directly with the 3 day weekend than the other 3 works of the series. I think that is what you are interested in.
From what I have come to understand neither Eduardo, nor Dr. Hervas, nor any of the other key persons from the early days promoted manipulation by any means, especially any trickery, unless of course you include the sort of obedience that is sometimes expected by clerical people of laymen. It is interesting that Eduardo always tried, as best I can tell, to comply with and abide by the commands of the clergy, to the letter, while constantly pushing the envelope by stating his views very clearly and taking full advantage of every loophole to do the right thing. Many people forget this and even sometimes come up with silly rules as a result. One example is the Group Reunion, which is the core of the method of the movement. Some folks for years have labored to mandate that it can be no more than 6 people. I once asked the folks in Mallorca if this was Eduardo’s idea. They laughed and after confirming that the group needed to be small they explained the origin of the idea.
Franco’s Spain was a National Socialist police state. As part of the state’s control policy any meeting of more than 6 persons was severely restricted. A public agenda had to be published and presented to the authorities who then could send monitors to the meetings. The Catholic Church was consolidated as an integral arm of the government and was thus exempt from this regulation. When Bishop Enciso banned Cursillo in the mid 1950’s that cover was removed, so the Cursillistas scheduled their groups and met in the public squares at restaurants where 6 could sit at a table. If necessary or desired people could simply trade places from one table to another. This the law was scrupulously obeyed and the Group Reunion could have no more than 6 people.
In later years Eduardo and his friends in Mallorca often attended world meetings and various meetings in other countries, and did what they felt they could as friends to help leaders understand the basic mentality. One of the turning points was in 1994 on the fiftieth anniversary of the first Cursillo at Cala Figuera. They invited leaders from around the world and introduced them to ten basic principles that they knew were crucial to the Cursillo. These included, Person, Freedom, Love, Friendship, Conviction, Constancy, Criterion, Sincerity, Life, Normality, and Joy. You can read this book by googling the first conversations of cala figuera.
Love
Charley
Hi Charley,
Thanks for the reply. I can see we are in a way, at crossed purposes here. What I am looking for is information specifically about what actually happens on an “Eduardo Bonnin” Cursillo weekend, not just what he writes about or what others say about him and his writings. They are of little interest to me unless they give specific information about the Cursillo weekend such as schedules and activities..
For instance, I can tell you that on Walk to Emmaus, people are to arrive on the Thursday night (arriving at night is in itself is a method of disorientation). They are not to use their own transport. They are to be cloistered which means no contact with anyone outside of the event. They are given a talk about not anticipating or prejudging what is about to happen over the weekend. They are told not to mistrust but to trust God by surrendering to the pattern of the 3 days and to give themselves completely to the message and experience of Walk to Emmaus. They are told to remove watches which means they are not going to know the time over the weekend. The talk includes a quote allegedly from Jesus telling them that He has chosen them to be there and that they are to “help” Him to change people.
There is more in that talk but then they are told they must keep silent until the Friday morning which means they won’t be able to discuss what was said with anyone until then. And by then, the program proper is in full swing with little time to evaluate what is happening. This is all highly manipulative and I would like to know if something similar happens at “Eduardo Bonnin’s” Cursillo.
That is just one example. There is much more and in each case, I would like to know any similarities or differences in Cursillo. Part of that is to find such in the public domain, otherwise it is information which is at least, closely guarded and that in itself begs the question why?
Part of the problem for me here is that there is a lot of focus on Eduardo Bonnin. Before he even lived, God was building His church according to His divine will. He certainly used and continues to use many people to do so, but those people truly obedient to Him would be horrified to have so much focus on themselves. The focus should always be Jesus, not the person delivering the message. Initially it may seem Eduardo Bonnin was being humble when saying Cursillo was authored by the Holy Spirit, but the implications of such a statement is to claim infallibility for the program and any negative issues are problems caused by people running it incorrectly.
Eduardo’s Bonnin’s Cursillo is unimportant to me if my goal is to know Christ more and grow in my walk with Him. What matters is prayer, Bible study and fellowship. I don’t have to go to Cursillo for that. In fact, if my understanding is right, Cursillo is for people who have no “drive” to learn about God. And if Cursillo manages to somewhat consistently instil that drive over 3 days, that makes me suspicious that it has been achieved by man’s methods, not God’s.
Reading Eduardo Bonnin’s writings is not the same as reading the Cursillo schedule or list of regulations and activities and how it is to be run. There are plenty of Walk to Emmaus folks writing and insisting that there are no secrets and no manipulation. Everything is done in love and if people get hurt by it, then either they were not suited for it or it was run badly. (I can see the same attitude here as with Eduardo Bonnin in that the program is infallible, people are the problem.) They talk in generalities, not specifics. They point to someone else to give me information. They insist they will give me answers to any questions asked. But they give me sanitised and biased answers.
If I need to trawl through Eduardo Bonnin’s writings or anyone else’s writings about him and his beliefs, in order to try to glean any information about Cursillo, then it’s not what I am looking for. Nor am I looking for direct personal contact with anyone involved in the organisation. My experience with Emmaus in that regard has been most unhelpful when trying to find what actually happens and why.
And all this doesn’t even address any teachings that take place. For example, do the teachings emphasise that salvation is only through the acknowledgement and faith in that Jesus paid the penalty for sin by His death and that only by His death and resurrection can we have eternal life? That baptism has no role to play in that except it is done in obedience as a symbol of that personal faith? That Jesus is the only mediator between God and man and so praying to anyone else is useless and wrong?
So Charley, for me it’s not enough to claim Eduardo Bonnin’s original Cursillo is better than anything that Cursillo has become. Without the information, it’s just a claim and nothing else. I’m sure you know what happens at these weekends and therefore some of that information can come from you on this forum. Maybe there is a link to such information. If it’s not in the public domain by now, then it should be.
Anyway brother Charlie, I don’t mean to be hostile or difficult over this. My stance against Cursillo type events is not meant to be personal. The fact is whether Eduardo Bonnin intended it or not, Cursillo events are hurting and misleading people and I know you are involved in pointing that out. Personally I think it would be better to stop Cursillo altogether than to continue it in any guise, a bit like dropping a protest march because it has been hijacked by those with another agenda. God’s way is to preach the gospel, not according to programs, but according to His divine will. So dropping a program is not going to harm the gospel.
As always,
Blessings in Christ,
Philip
Thanks Philip,
I am not sure how I can provide what you request. If you can find a way, I would gladly send you copies of the weekend manuals that I have access too…but then, as you point out, people do often as they wish instead of following the manuals.
Also, I would be glad to relate to you as much personal experience as I can. I have served on several teams in different places. But every weekend has different nuances. As St. John mentioned, the whole world would not hold the books!
As you know, if you believe me, I am opposed to manipulation. I have witnessed and also heard personal experiences of some of the abuses you mention…I am also well aware that such abuses and others much worse have occurred and no doubt continue to occur in many other arenas, including churches, bible studies, and so on.
Now you have, probably for very good reasons, decided that Cursillo should be stopped. Someone else might come to the same conclusion about any other program or way of life. I feel sure that it is the specific history of your life that has brought you to this conclusion.
I have seen and know of some of the problems you mention, yet I have also seen what I consider to be great blessings in the lives of many people from Cursillo and similar encounter movements. I have decided to set myself firmly against what I believe are errors in the hope that I am acting in His will in doing so and completely trusting Him to do the best He can with my feeble efforts.
In any event, I expect that most of these movements will continue for some time…though they will all come to an end when He sees fit. For this reason I do not think that you and I are at cross purposes at all!!!! And I consider all that you say, while not agreeing with some of it, as very helpful in advancing the only thing important…which is His holy will and spreading the Good news that He loves each person.
Lastly, you might be surprised that Eduard, and most leaders I know, would completely agree with you that Cursillo is not necessary. As Jesus often pointed out there is only one thing necessary. Cursillo helps me do it.
love,
Charley
Hello again all! I was once actively involved in Tres Dias: My candidate weekend, and 5 times as a team member. I posted recently the URL of a webpage that answers all of your questions not only about the sequencing of the weekend, but about Bonin himself, and his intentional psychological manipulation in the same style used by the Unification Church (“Moonies”). Here it is again: http://www.questioningcursillo.com Stay focused on real ministries, not those that divide and destroy churches like Cursillo, Emmaus, Tres Dias and the others. Terry Hannigan
PS: If you want me to, I will repost the weekend sequence in great detail here from my experience. The Holy Spirit does not work the secret ways of darkness (once again, I am paraphrasing Eph 5:11).
Hi Terry,
I am familiar with Dr. Janssen’s website and book. I have read it. He and I have traded e-mails, and I hope to meet him some day. Unfortunately there are many errors in the book concerning Eduardo Bonnin and the original Cursillo Movement. The terrible things that he describes are completely beyond rationalization and he is so absolutely right to call the perpetrators to task for them. I just wish that He was aware of the truth that Eduardo always proclaimed, and did not blame him for the distortions that others made to his simple method of encountering the Risen Christ. It is like blaming the man who invented canned tuna when some guy comes along and starts putting a tuna fish label on cans of cat food.
No doubt Eduardo was far from perfect. And he often pointed this out himself, but he was not a psychologist and he constantly proclaimed that every person’s freedom and dignity was paramount.
Anyway, people are always quick to believe what they hear if it goes along with what the want to hear. Please take a look at Eduardo’s actual writings and name the actual rascals who are doing these terrible things!
Love,
Charley
Hi TerryH1950,
Thank you, yes I saw your post and it is much appreciated. I came across that website before and read the book by Brian V Janssen. It certainly helped to understand the Cursillo movement and verified for me that, despite not having attended or been involved, my radar wasn’t off!
After many years research into the Walk to Emmaus, a similar program to Tres Dias, I pinned it all down to cult-type methods. Your posting of your experience is vital to me because it shows those who were involved can see the light as it were, and realise how wrong it actually is. And that to me takes a lot of courage.
The issue for me at the moment is Eduardo Bonnin and his intent. I know Brian V Janssen has a particular take on that and from the evidence I have so far, I tend to agree. But Charley has claimed otherwise and I don’t have enough info to decide for sure. I would like to see the manuals for his original Cursillo and how it’s supposed to be done according to him.
Certainly, Tres Dias and Walk to Emmaus are cult-type programs and I posted a link before from a Christian apologetics centre in Ukraine which evaluated Tres Dias and found it using cult-type methods. Here it is again:
Click to access td_eng.pdf
With regards to the teaching at Walk to Emmaus, I found it to be very wishy washy, dumbed down, and “ear tickling” stuff. Certainly not a clear gospel. And for those who think it’s for believers and therefore the gospel doesn’t need to be preached, not all weekends only have believers at them. There will certainly be folks from churches who don’t understand the gospel. The program welcomes anyone from “mainstream” churches and from experience, there are many in mainstream churches who don’t know the gospel. They can believe salvation through baptism as was the case in the mainstream church I attended as a child.
But even for those who do understand the gospel, it still needs to clearly stated. I know after been a Christian believer for over 40 years, I need to hear the gospel always, not just once or twice! It keeps me focused on the truth and from straying into deception.
Thank you again Terry, I would encourage you to keep speaking out against these programs. From experience I know how tough that is! Like hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall.
Blessings,
Philip
Thank you Charley,
I may take you up on your offer. My thinking is, if you are willing, that I email you and that you can notify some Cursillo organisers in my area that I will contact them regarding the purchase of the manuals. I don’t want to be involved in Cursillo at all but am interested in what the manuals can reveal.
I do believe you are opposed to manipulation and if you agree that the stuff I mentioned is unacceptably manipulative, then we are on the same wavelength there. Most Emmaus folks I have encountered would try to excuse or explain in such a way as to make it all sound sincere and loving when it really isn’t.
My reasoning for Cursillo to be stopped is chiefly because it’s causing division and hurt in the body. I also believe it is not needed in any form at all. The church should be doing as God says which is to preach the gospel and make disciples. There are no programs for this in the Bible. God’s command is to just do it. And the church has been doing it, and doing it by God’s strength for 2000 years.
Spiritual growth methods are also set out in the Bible, prayer, Bible study, Bible teaching, good leadership and fellowship are ways God has set out in the Bible and not a program in sight. For me, programs get in the way of growth in Christ. Very often the programs become the focus – we need to study the Bible, we’ll use that program, we need to learn to be good parents, we’ll use this program, we need to learn to be good spouses, we’ll use another program and don’t forget yet another program for renewal etc. etc. etc. and on it goes from one program to the next!
All that’s needed for all of the above is that which God has said in the Bible done according to His will. Why do churches now feel they need programs to do this? The only answer I can give to that is that some churches are weak in some area and are looking to take the easy way out by buying a program. Instead they should be praying and relying on God because He has said in our weakness, His strength is shown. (Many scriptures here but 2 Corinthians 12:9-11 and Isaiah 40:29-31 are two of my favourites). That takes faith. But if we start to use programs, then we can claim we did it by the programs (even if we claim God did it through the programs, we are still claiming the programs were needed). Or we can claim the programs themselves are God’s work, which is a falsehood and dangerous.
We all feel weak and feeble when faced with God’s work and so we should. But He has promised to do it by His strength, not ours. One of my favourite verses at the moment is Proverbs 21:31 where God says “The horse is prepared for the day of battle, But victory belongs to the Lord” (NASB). We can and should be as prepared as possible, but He does it all, not us! Our feeble efforts can’t even begin to give us the victory, however hard we try. He has promised to work through us if we follow His way, which is what is written in scripture. That’s when His strength is revealed.
I am not too surprised that Eduardo Bonnin and other leaders would agree that Cursillo isn’t necessary. What does surprise me is that knowing that, they do it anyway. (sorry if that sounds judgemental). If it isn’t needed, don’t do it. That’s what bothers me about Eduardo Bonnin’s claim that Cursillo is authored by the Holy Spirit. God has set out in the Bible, how to do it without programs. That is His way. We don’t need another. And He hasn’t given us another.
Anyway, if you are amenable to my suggestion at the start before I began to ramble, give me some time to mull it over.
Thanks again,
Blessings,
Philip
Philip, my brother, I know we come at this or to this from different perspectives, and with different ideas about our personal call as to what to do, but you will never know how very special this last message is to me. You have repeated several things, nearly verbatim, that have directed my activities in the movement for the last seven or eight years. I am more than ever convinced that our hearts are really aligned in this. It is so easy for us humans to become idol worshippers and to make idols out of whatever is at hand, whether it be Tres Dias/Cursillo or the church we “belong to”, or the pastor or preacher we “idolize.” I have come, as it sounds like you have, to know that it is all Him. I am a Roman Catholic. That is my history and He has blessed me far more than I can proclaim in it….but I do not belong to the Catholic Church….I belong to Him. Suffice to say that I am at your service at any time. I wish to foist nothing off on you, but only to give you any help I can by sharing with you the truth as I see it. I trust Him, the all powerful miracle worker to lead you to the truth, with my help or without it, and even, perhaps, despite it! My faith is all in Him. I will end with a little true story.
About thirty years ago my son was just a toddler. I was doing a major remodeling project in our home and was filling drywall joints and nail depressions with joint compound when he happened to come by. He said, “Daddy, let me help.” So of course I filled a little bucket with some compound, gave him one of my trowels and a spot on the wall to “work on.” I kept up beside him doing my work, but really enjoyed watching him spread the “mud” all over the wall…on the floor…all over himself. Well you get the picture. In a few minutes his mother walked in. She took one look and exclaimed “What are you doing?!!!” Then she took him by the hand and put him into the bathtub.
I started happily scraping up the mess from the wall and the floor and smoothing things out. In a few minutes I was busy back at work with my joints and nail depressions that’s when it occurred to me. I had been so happy watching Joey helping me. It really gave me so much joy, and I realized, “That is God and me!!!” I see Him at work and say “Daddy, I want to help.” So He joyfully gives me a little to work with and says “Have at it son.” knowing full well that He is in control of it all. Now that I have learned this lesson I just do the best I can not to mess up too much, knowing full well that He is enjoying watching me try and will make it all come out good in the end.
I am His, and if I can be of any service to you, just let me know. I’ll do my best and trust Him for all the rest.
Love,
Charley
Hi again Charley,
Thank you for your kindness and your story. Although my take on what God does is that He chooses to work through us to bring His good news to others. We need to have the attitude that we are not here to “help” Him, but to be obedient to His will because he loves us and we love Him.
If I can just touch on one thing you said to Terry and it’s what triggers my antennae with regard to Eduardo Bonnin. You describe Cursillo as Eduardo Bonnin’s “simple method of encountering the Risen Christ”. But I would argue there is no method, other than God’s sovereign will, to encounter Christ. In the Bible when the disciples encounter Him on their journey to Emmaus, it was all Jesus who initiated that encounter. I say this to folks in Walk To Emmaus when they think they are only doing something similar to that which is written in Luke 24. Only God has control over our encounters with Him.
If we want those encounters, all we need is written in the Bible. First and foremost, the gospel needs to be preached loud and clear. We are all sinners and sin needs to be punished. Only through personal acceptance that Jesus, being God in the flesh, died as that once for all punishment for our sins can we be forgiven and in His resurrection receive eternal life. Then and only then can we be in fellowship with Him.
We are then to wait on Him in prayer, Bible study and fellowship with others. We encounter Him when we do this. He also initiates encounters without us doing these things but that would be a lack of obedience on our part as it was with the disciples on the road to Emmaus. He initiates the need in us to want to pray and study the Bible in fellowship with others and when He fills that need, we grow in fellowship with Him. That’s God’s method.
If Eduardo Bonnin’s Cursillo is highlighting this as the only way for living in Christ, then fair enough. But that would make his program unnecessary anyway and all he and others have to do is preach the word of God without a program or method.
I don’t know if you see my point or not. For you Cursillo seems to help, but I would counter that you don’t need a program or method to do what you are doing besides that which is written in the Bible. Eduardo Bonnin hasn’t invented anything that improves on God’s method in scripture. Nor can anyone because God’s word is perfect. Cursillo is not God’s way of growing in Him or encountering Him because He never mentioned it in the His word. But He has told us His way there. Nobody can claim a new way or method. If they do, you can be sure it will be an inferior and deceptive one.
Blessings,
Philip
Thank you Philip,
It seems that I am replying to two posts in a row here so as for the first one:
Communication, especially written, is always a little dicey. We have been back and forth a little and I am beginning to feel that we really do see things much, much more alike than I ever imagined, but words and images can confuse as well as enlighten. The point of my little story about my son is an example. I completely agree that it is God working through us that bears fruit. It is just that in all honestly I always feel so inadequate as his “tool.” In a sense I was working through my son…He wanted to help. I gave him all he needed including a little space to work on…and he tried! I was very happy, knowing his limitations, in just watching him and helping him when he asked for it, and in cleaning up the mess. That is how I thing God “uses” me. I know I make lots of mistakes, and I constantly beg Him for help…trusting that He will always work His will in the end, and that He really does enjoy watching and helping me try to help Him.
You will never know how very, very special your use of Luke 24 was in what you wrote. This passage has been very personal and active in our lives for many years. He used it in helping move us from WV to Texas in 1981 and it has come up very often along the way in those very special moments, out of the blue!!!! It is an amazing footprint He seems to so often leave with Mary and me. Note that the disciples recognized Him in the breaking of the bread. Remember that he appeared over and over to the disciples as an unrecognized stranger, until they came to know they had encountered Him. He is a living Person, and in some special way that is far beyond me to understand He lives in me and in you. I am so very convinced that this dialog we are having is an encounter with Him. That is the essence of Eduardo’s simple method of encountering Christ. It is not doing anything with the aim of “conjuring up God” It is helping, mostly through prayer, and friendship, people open their eyes and look inside themselves to find the friend, Him, who has been there all along. Of helping one another day by day continue to do that and as well to open our eyes and glimpse Him in one another working, as He always does, to love. And opening our eyes to Him alive and risen and working through us and others to love this world He alone has created. So is it possible that God worked through Eduardo. Those who knew him personally attest so. His writings and his constant witness of life speaks volumes to me that he did. And the fact that so many “more brilliant” people have distorted the simplicity of his Cursillo in ways that detract from this simple finding Him with total freedom in myself…in my brothers…in the others is sad to me. So sad that I wish to help them see. That is my call, and I am very hard put to argue with anyone who feels called to stop such foolishness, and I applaud them for their efforts, and want to do all I can in Christian charity to stop any of these things that hurt other people.
Bottom line there is most absolutely certainly no need for Cursillo. There is only “one thing necessary” as Jesus pointed out. Yet there are so many who do not know Him. Some because they have been treated badly by people calling themselves Christians. Some because no one every took the time or interest in them to tell them about Him. The germ for generating Cursillo as I understand it, was Eduardo’s desire to help some of his friends who were fellow soldiers and frequented the red light district in Palma come to know the friendship in Christ that he enjoyed. These young men were not interested in Church, and would not have been heartily welcomed there if they had been! He realized that there were many, many ways to come to know about Him, but that until a person was interested in knowing him it was very unlikely they would ever meet him. His hope was that by spending a few days with a few fellow men who had at least some interest, and listening to the witness of some of them who were actually living or consciously trying to live in friendship with Him, some of those who were not so inclined might develop a little spiritual hunger for Him. Then, if some were interested in maintain friendships that could help each other find ways to begin to satisfy that hunger, it would facilitate each ones journey to the Father through Jesus, who is the only way.
That is the simplicity. That hunger, of course, immediately leads to the scriptures and to the established Church, and to fellowship and ministry. Were leaders have this simple “Fundamental” mentality the Cursillo does precisely that. In my opinion, it then is an instrument, as each of those friends are instruments, He uses. All I can say is that over the last 38 years I have experienced this in my life and the lives of many others. Yes there are distortions (Stop them…or fix them). There are people who do not understand (Help them, and never stop pointing out the simplicity of love) There are people who have been hurt (Do all you can to help them heal). In all of these actions know that He is the one and only power, and trust in Him and His mercy and love.
Love, Charley
As for the second post:
Of course Cursillo is not needed. Neither is any church or institution or person, except Jesus. It is all Jesus. But what is is. Either it is because it is precisely what He intended, or it is something He has allowed or permitted to exist.
Of course Cursillo and Eduardo came to us from a specific place and time and in a specific milieu. The fact that Eduardo (whether through human ingenuity or inspiration or both) managed to cut to the very core and basic fundamental reality of BEING Christian, and initiate a simple three day way to demonstrate this to those far away from Him has made Cursillo able to transcend many things that divide so many people, race, culture, denominations….
This truly is amazing, and it is why I am so involved and believe that He wants me to be so in trying to help others realize the simple place it can have in helping others come to know Him.
Love, Charley
Charley, I just wanted to make a brief comment about something in your comments (and in the writings of many other Catholics and mainline/liberal Protestants) that deeply concerns me. Specifically, God is viewed as our heavenly Father, as a God of love, love, love. I hear the love and compassion and mercy of God mentioned, but rarely if ever the “negative” side of God. IMHO, any truly Christian (born again) retreat must deal at some point with this negative side of God. By His very nature, God is holy, and will not tolerate sin in His presence. Because mankind is fallen, every human being (except Christ) has sinned and deserves the eternal punishment of Hell and the Lake of Fire. But God showed His love for us by sending His Son to die for our sins. True Christians are those who 1) truly repent of their sinful ways, 2) accept Christ as their Saviour (paying their “sin debt” and taking their punishment), 3) believe that Christ rose again, and 4) truly turn their lives over to Christ, living 100% for Him the rest of their lives. (Try Googling “the Roman Road to salvation” for a more detailed description.) Any retreat attender who does not believe the above – and take the above four steps – is not a true Christian, no matter what he or she says. … Which brings me to another very important question. I’ve been reading lately that many Roman Catholics (particularly since Vatican II) are very hesitant to name ANY human being as going to Hell. This, in spite of numerous Bible passages that say very specifically who is going to Hell – anyone who does not believe on Christ (accept Him as Saviour in the so-called Protestant manner I described above). I’m wondering what your personal definition of a Christian is, and precisely how this differs from the “Protestant” definition I gave above. God bless you – Dave
Wonderful, Dave!
I am so very blessed that you do not hear of the “negative” side of God in anything I say. You bring me great joy by saying that. Because…andfor many years I did try….I have not been able to find one tiny thing about Him that is NEGATIVE!!!! In fact, I have come to see and to know that in Him, and in Him alone everything is good. He is…and quite frankly He is goodness.
Yes evil does exist. But it exists only as His antithesis, and He is constantly and very successfully winning the battle against it…the victory is secure, and it is secure only in Him. And here is the wonderful secret…He IS JESUS. He is alive. He dwells, through the grace of His own Holy Spirit deep in our hearts. Our job, if in fact we have one, is to simply and constantly LET HIM BE, and let Him shine in us.
You will no doubt be surprised that I think your four-fold statement of what being Christian is is right on!!! I do not think It can be improved at all, except by perhaps saying being Christian is being Him, but I fear you would misunderstand, because of the words, so perhaps it would be better to say Being Christian is letting Him be in me. It means being transparent and available to all those He loves, especially those far away from Him.
I know you would think I am wrong, but I have been so amazed here at the end of my life to see this simple reality in the writings of our recent popes, in the work of Eduardo Bonnin, in the work of so many wonderful people who love Him and who love goodness and mercy of all faiths, all denominations, and all cultures, and even of all times.
As St. Paul put it so aptly, we are in the midst of a great spiritual battle. It is far beyond any of us to do a lot, but every single one of us can and should do his little part…the battle is, praise God, not truth against falsehood. If it were, it would be won in an instant. The battle is love against apathy and hatred. The more loving I am…they more useful I am to Him.
So I will state what I believe, and I will never stop doing so. But I will, realizing I am tiny and what I believe is of no consequence unless He believes in me, and if He believes in me then I do not care a fig what anyone else thinks.
Your four point plan is wonderful. 1) truly repent of their sinful ways, I do and yet I am the worst sinner because every day I do things I am sorry for and also fail to do so many things I wish I had done, 2) accept Christ as their Saviour (paying their “sin debt” and taking their punishment), Accept Him or not, that is who He is…and it constantly boggles my mind so badly that I am convinced He is quite a lunatic for even knowing me, let alone loving me…BUT I AM PERSUADED HE DOES. So I do not simply accept Him, I embrace Him with all my strength and beg Him to use my poor old body to be a sign of His presence ro anyone He chooses. (He has taken me all ovr the world these past 8 years and it has been amazing. 3) believe that Christ rose again, I do not believe this (by any definition that you would find in a dictionary anyway) I know it!!! I have seen and heard Him and He always says the same thing I LOVE YOU…now go LOVE AS I LOVE. And though I constantly fail to do so I see Him using my feeble attempts in many miraculous ways. Ind , this is something I do believe, He is doing so much more than I can ever imagine blessing others I will never meet because of my feeble prayers and efforts. and 4) truly turn their lives over to Christ, living 100% for Him the rest of their lives. I AM HIS
So I am a PROTESTANT> in fact I am a Roman Catholic protestant. Most protestants do not, in my estimation, know what they are protesting. I have asked them, and will keep asking. I am an RC Protestant protesting against apathy and hatred wherever it arises.
Love you Dave. Hope you understand a little about me and that I have answered your questions…but really and truly I simply hope and trust you grow closer to Him every day partly because that means we will be growing closer to each other.
Love, Charley
Charley, thank you for your feedback and for the explanation of your viewpoint regarding salvation. (BTW I agree 100% with Philip’s explanation of the “Protestant” view of salvation – thank you Philip!) Charley, I figured you would say you are aligned with my four “steps” of salvation. Not to be rude, but it appears to me you are either 1) not understanding the differences between the Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrines of salvation, or 2) choosing “in love” to not address the differences. Since you seem to be a very intelligent man, I would assume for now you are taking position #2. But certainly you know that Roman Catholics hate being told by “fundamentalists” (born again Protestants) that Roman Catholics are not born again. Many books have been written by Roman Catholic apologists, countering the so-called “fundamentalist attacks” against the Roman Catholic teachings on salvation. And what exactly are the Roman Catholic teachings? Following is a good summary, which I found here: http://bustedhalo.com/ministry-resources/where-in-the-bible-does-it-say-that-mary-mother-of-jesus-is-sinless-and-if-it-is-not-in-the-bible-why-does-the-catholic-church-act-like-she-is
“… You also ask: “Why are Catholics who are baptized when they were infants, choose to lead unholy, even atheistic lives, die and then the priest at the funeral says they are going to heaven because they were baptized?”… The bishop of Rome, as head of the Catholic Church, sometimes declares certain people to be “saints” because they lived such exemplary and holy lives that we can believe with confidence that they are “with God in heaven.” Such a declaration only comes after a long investigation into the facts of that person’s life. The Catholic Church has never declared any deceased person to be “in hell.” Aside from this we don’t know and can’t presume the eternal state of any person who has died, although we believe that God desires all people to be with him in death as well as in life. Baptism does not automatically ensure that a person will go to heaven when he or she dies. We must try to live out our Baptism with lives of faith, hope and love…. The Catholic Church asks its members to pray for those who have died BECAUSE we know that we are all sinners, and even when we have tried to live a good life we can die short of the purity of heart that makes eternal life “with God” a reality. Yet we believe that God’s mercy is not thwarted by death and that God has the power to purify and transform the soul even after death so that it is fully open to participating in eternal life. Purgatory is not a place of “sentences”, like a prison, because it exists in eternity which is timeless…. We should certainly pray for the living as well, that they may accept God’s grace into their lives.”
Charley, you say you are a Catholic Protestant. Again, not to be rude, but I would say if you agree with all the points in the above paragraph, you are Catholic. I realize that a number of so-called Protestant denominations gravitate toward so-called Catholic teachings (such as baptismal regeneration). Examples would be the Anglicans, Episcopalians, certain Lutheran denominations, etc. I would refer to these perhaps as “Quasi-Catholic denominations” – not “Catholic Protestant denominations” – since they often barely resemble Protestant denominations… Also, I know Catholics who claim to have become “born again Catholics”. But as I’m using the term “born again”, this is impossible – the teachings of Catholics and born again Protestants regarding salvation are polar opposites. Well that’s it for now – God bless you – Dave P.S. – To tie this in with with the three day weekends, it appears to me that most of these events are attended by Catholics or “Quasi-Catholics.”
Sorry Dave & Philip,
You know that I am a Catholic. It is Sunday and I had to take a break for Holy Mass. Dave, several years ago you introduced me to five “solas.” Thanks very much. I often hear preachers speak of “ten Commandments.” though they usually get around to saying that Jesus introduced “two Commandments” instead. Sometimes they argue with me when I point out that since Jesus in His Holy Spirit has chosen to dwell in us, these two really collapse to one. For me, all glory be to God, since faith cannot be earned but is His free (to me at least) gift, and since Jesus clearly is the Word of God, and is the only source and fount of God’s grace for us, these five also collapse, at least for me, to one…Sola Christus. I am sorry if this is wrong, but it is how I see it. All other things are men’s best attempts to explain or rationalize this unexplainably deep mystery. No doubt they are good things, but like all of man made good things, they can also be used for selfish and harmful ends. The one thing I do firmly believe (since I know He is and is everything) is that or common faith (which is His gift to each one of us) is the place we must start if we wish to be obedient to the mandate He has given us to love one another so that the world may know He is from Our Father.
As for my salvation. It is in His hands, and He loves me. As for the “power” and “place” of Baptism, Moses wasn’t baptized. Abraham wasn’t baptized. Need I go on?
As for born again, I believe I have been, as I have experienced a dramatic change in my life…not because of any internal decision (unless you mean my deciding to ask Him to “show me if You are real”) that seems very much like what I imagine being “born all over” would be. So I can say I have been born again. I also know that since then I have quite often fallen by errors and ommisions that make me blush and even weep. But still…He loves me.
Justice is when God gives us what we deserve. Mercy (love) is when God does not give us what we deserve. Grace is when God gives us exactly what we need when we need it.
As for what Eduardo saw, I cannot say…but I can read what he wrote, and what others say about how he lived. One time he said that the purpose, for him, of the Cursillo movement was eschatological. It was simply that there be more souls on the right than on the left when the Gospel described day of judgement arrives.
What Eduardo saw or believed is not of much consequence to me. It served as a wonderful confirmation of my personal journey of faith when I discovered his simple writings about seven years ago. What is important is that what he said seemed to be important (though only in their minds) to the people who were running Cursillo and its off-shoots. Thus his wisdom (which they often appealed to in the most amazing contradiction of truth, because almost none of them had ever read any of it) seemed a very good way to contradict the idiotic abuses you guys have been so gracious and good to point out. SO I have been on this little campaign, and I believe that the Holy Spirit has too and is using many channels including you and your posts, to effect His Holy will in the matter. My campaign is against the evils that are in these movements because of people’s subservience to the “Spirit of the World, or the Spirit of evil” instead of the Holy Spirit who is love and freedom. I feel my call is to help correct the movement. You seem to feel yours is to end it. Naturally you see the “negative” more than the “positive” and seem to see no positive at all. Perhaps you are correct and if so It will come to an end. I will be very happy. Perhaps I am right and it can be corrected. If so it will take a very long time, and I will also be happy. In the end Cursillo really is not that important. He is all important.
My livfe has become an expression, at least to me, of the reality that St. Paul expressed to the Ephesians, especially in Chapter 1 verses 9-10 of the letter he wrote to them. And for me the time is right now! Love….Charley
Thank you Charley,
There is much we can agree on and for that I am thankful. I am unconvinced however with your portrayal of Cursillo. Whether or not Eduardo Bonnin used psychological methods remains for me to discover but aside from that, I would echo Dave’s point that there doesn’t seem to be a clear gospel message, at least in the description you have given.
How did Eduardo Bonnin see salvation? Did he assume his friends were saved because they were Catholic and just needed some guidance, love and friendship to be restored or did he make clear that, in order to be saved, all must come to a personal repentance and trust in the fact that Jesus paid the penalty they and all of us deserve?
It’s not about living a Godly life and finding Christ within. That is salvation by works, which doesn’t work. It must come down to personal repentance and faith in His saving work of His death and resurrection. The only One that ever lived without sin, paid the ultimate price as though He was all sin. And any who want to be saved can only be so by repentance and faith in that once for all act.
Nothing else can save a person from eternity in hell – no righteous acts, no pious life, no religious devotion, no love, no friendship, no ritual, and no other sacrifice or penance can do it. Nothing but that one loving sacrifice by Jesus.
God is a loving God but also a God of justice and judgement. And all of us will be judged on what we decided about salvation and the death and resurrection of His Son. As Dave has said, it is the “negative” side of God, but a very real one and each of us ignores it at our own peril. To commit one sin is to break all of God’s commandments and all of us commit sins every day of our lives. How else can we be saved but by His and only His, sinless life and sacrifice?
To love Jesus but think we can live a life good enough for God to exempt us from eternal punishment is not to love Him at all, but to reject His sacrifice. To trust in any other perceived mediator between God and man for salvation or added favour is a denial of that sacrifice. I know I’m labouring the point but it is an absolutely essential one. And the questions are, did Eduardo Bonnin understand it and did he preach it? Did he explain the wrath of God and His absolute intolerance of even just one “tiny” sin which would condemn a person to eternity in hell? Or did he just gather folks into a 3 day experience of a religious life and love of Jesus by using love and friendship (which I would view as manipulation)?
These are questions which remain to be answered and I know from experience that ecumenism tends to ignore these questions as secondary issues and focus on terminology like “trusting Jesus”, “loving Jesus”, “following Jesus” and “loving one another” without actually defining what these mean.
Blessings,
Philip
Hi again Charley,
From your last post, I am getting the impression that Cursillo as Eduardo Bonnin intended was in response to specific political, social and religious issues at a specific time and in a specific place. The religious issues were specifically within the Catholic Church. It was not something which had any bearing on Christ’s church outside of the Catholic Church.
Within “Protestant” churches at this time, there was a lot more freedom for people to read the Bible and trust God personally than rely on any clerical control. Faith was far more personal than institutional. There would no need for “group reunions” because there would be Bible studies and prayer meetings happening within each church community. Bible teaching and study without traditions and rituals was crucial and practised. The Catholic Church was and still is very strong on tradition and ritual.
To me Cursillo seems to be therefore irrelevant to anyone outside of the Catholic Church. For instance, my understanding is that during Franco’s rule in Spain, the Catholic Church was the recognised state church while Christians outside of it were persecuted in such a way as to have to go underground or leave the country. Cursillo as founded by Eduardo Bonnin would have no solution to this. It deals with a perceived problem within the Catholic Church, not Christ’s church.
It would be a bit like me telling you that a specific solution dealing with a specific issue in my local church and the political issues in my country at some point in history has relevance to your current walk with God. It won’t. The only thing at issue would be your salvation and how that is achieved. Beyond that, your walk with God is dependant on what the Bible says and the leading of the Holy Spirit rather than any program founded by my church to solve any specific issues we had. And if you were to pick up that program and start using it in a way that wasn’t intended, my job would be to tell you to stop using it. It was for a specific reason, not any similar reason.
So really it is not so much of interest to me what Eduardo Bonnin intended, but what Cursillo is for people who attend Tres Dias, Walk to Emmaus and other such events. The argument is not that Cursillo should be run as he intended but of what good is it anyway and what damage does it do in a church which has strong Bible teaching and study as part of its weekly activities. I think we are really getting side-tracked down a road which is ending up discussing Eduardo Bonnin and his beliefs. Tres Dias and the like are not needed in such a church and Eduardo Bonnin’s Cursillo is not needed either. In fact, if people start focussing on them as is happening, the programs would be leading people away from the gospel. If a church is weak in Bible teaching and study, they won’t need a program, just to start doing it!
Blessings in Christ,
Philip
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Philip and Dave,
Thank you so very much for being patient with an old man. Perhaps in my dotage I have regressed…some folks say this happens. I think my problem is that I have come to the point where I resemble a teenage boy in love!!! I am in love with Jesus. The amazing thing that makes me ecstatic that I feel giddy is that I have come to believe He loves me and He loves every person…and asks me to do the same…if I really love Him. So my aim is not in worrying about heaven or hell in some future, that is all too close, or perhaps not close enough! My aim, as His mother told the servants, Is to do as He says…because He loves me!
Hi Charley,
The gospel is not just a gospel of love but the gospel of salvation. That is the “good news”. By the death and resurrection of Jesus, we don’t have to pay the penalty for our sin, He has done it! If we accept that by faith, then we are going to be with Him in heaven – the ultimate goal of eternity! Now that makes me giddy!!
But salvation is only so if we are saved from something. Otherwise it means nothing. To save people from eternal punishment is the reason why Jesus gave His life. If we ignore that, then all the love we feel for Jesus means nothing. It is the ultimate rejection of His sacrifice. Jesus has said that not everyone who acknowledges Him as Lord will get to heaven, in fact He will reject many as though He never knew them. Such tragedy is going to happen. He has said it and to ignore it is disobedience and to not do as He says!
So Charley, to love as Jesus loves and to do as He says is to point people to that once for all sacrifice so as not to be rejected by Him. If we are more concerned with loving folks here on earth than with their destination in the soon to be future, and we are all here for just a short time, then that love is meaningless. Love must be accompanied by the message of salvation. I am now less convinced of Eduardo Bonnin’s understanding of this than when we started to discuss.
I hold up my hand here and say that I don’t tell people enough, and for that I must rely on Him more and more to help me in my weakness. All praise to Him who is able when I am not!
Blessings,
Philip.
Hmmm,
I am definitely lost at the moment. So are you saying that my infinitely good Father created a “hell” to punish me in eternal damnation for not being grateful to Him for coming and suffering a humiliating torture and death, caused by my sinfulness, just to save me from this horrible punishment He had devised for all similar ingrates.
I don’t buy that. I think that is a very curious understanding of salvation, and even paints a picture of God that I just cannot accept.
I do not claim to be a theologian here, and I am speaking in the name of only one person, me. I am not alluding at all to Eduardo Bonnin here. Also I expect that I do not quite understand what you are saying.
What I do know is that evil does exist. I also know that I have done some bad things, and made many other mistakes as well. As the apostle says, I have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Logic demands that justice cries for punishment for these offenses. But I am persuaded, I am convicted, that by His mercy, His merciful grace alone He has taken my guilt upon Himself and thus I really and truly am saved. I am saved from the SELF inflicted torture, HELL, that is the logical consequence, and that salvation is something I could never earn. Not through any works, and certainly not by simply being grateful for salvation or even by telling other people that I am grateful or I am saved.
My gratitude is simply that. I am saved!!!! I am saved from myself, from the world, and from the personified evil we call the devil.
It is the depth of my gratitude that compels me to spread the Gospel. It is in knowing that He thirsts for souls. Now I could go try to do that by telling people they are damned to hell if they do not shape up. I once thought that was what I ought to do, and it is exactly what many others have done to me, and others that I have seen in the past. The problem is that it does not work very well. It is like asking someone to eat cake by putting a gun to his head and telling him you will pull the trigger if he doesn’t eat it. He will eat, but when you go away. Will he eat more cake? I doubt it. He will be traumatized and will probably vomit at the very sight of more cake!
I think the much more likely method to succeed is to extol the goodness of the cake, and to eat it your self in the presence of people. In short order they will likely “taste and see.” With Jesus one little taste is often all it takes.
And I do say that contemplating what He did for me in securing my salvation is something that “causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble. I once attended a Cursillo workshop at a Catholic retreat center. The podium happened to be right in front of a larger than life crucifix. For every talk I sat looking at that crucifix. Eventually I could hardly hear a word the speakers were saying, because of the powerful effect that image began to have on my conscious mind. I began to wonder where I would have been had I been alive that day. Would I have been one of the soldiers, or one of the crowd, or the Pharisees. I would like to think I might have tried to do something. To have been a Veronica or a Simon. I hoped that I would have tried to ease His pain with a drink of water or something. Then it struck me very clearly how stupid I was being. I was not there 2000 years ago…but He is here right now!!! And I can do something. I can help him when I help the “least of His brethren.” It was a very sobering moment for me…and it did not decrease, but only increased my joy and gratitude. Both for Him and His great sacrifice, but also for His gift of insight, and His willingness to accept my little efforts whenever I do something for Him in helping the “least of His, and my, brethren.” And the greatest thing I can do for any person is help them come to know Him better.
Love, Charley
PS: I still do not know what my words, as mistaken as they are, would have to do with your opinion of Eduardo. I still say, let him speak for himself. Read what he has said. If you find him to be a heretic, there is not much I can do. I can only say that all the things people have done that I have heard you and Dave object to are the same things I have objected to, and that I have read in Eduardo’s writings objecting to as well. Amen
Hi Charlie.
My turn to hmmm. You have a strange way of twisting my words. If I was to do the same I could say that you believe evil exists therefore my infinitely good Father created evil just so as to tempt me from Him! Evil can only exist if God created it.
I find it curious that you could sit and look at the crucifix and not ask why? Why did Jesus have to die? He did it by choice, of that there is no doubt. So if it wasn’t out of a loving sacrificial act of taking punishment on Himself in our place, what was it? Maybe you have asked that question, but your response to my post seems very odd if you did.
As for salvation from self inflicted torture, what does that mean? What does it mean to be saved from personified evil? If it only exists in the here and now, then I would happily die an atheist. I would merely be “snuffed out”, I could still live a life of loving others without Him and be a good person. Every atheist that exists is perfectly happy with that notion. That is what they believe – no judgement, no punishment, just nothing. Live life as best you can towards your fellow human beings. Big deal!
But an eternal punishment? Now that’s something to be saved from. That shows how loving Jesus really is. If He died merely to save me and others from ourselves, with no consequence in eternity, then he wasted His time. I find that a meaningless concept.
When you say you are compelled to spread the gospel, what gospel is it? The one Paul speaks of in your referenced text of Ephesians chapter 1, the gospel of salvation (v12), the one that same Paul iterates that we have been justified by His blood and saved from God’s wrath (Romans 5:9), or are you spreading a gospel of “love” without reference to His wrath and the need for the shedding of Christ’s blood?
It’s very easy to focus on verses about all the good attributes of God and His love, and that is certainly how I am compelled to respond to Him, but I cannot ignore the verses about His judgement and wrath. They are certainly there, and without them, we ignore who He really is and what we are really saved from. (Hebrews 2: 1-3, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13: 40-43)
As for Eduardo Bonnin, personally I have no real interest in what he said or wrote. He has no relevance to my relationship with my heavenly Father through the shedding of my Saviours blood. He may or may not have used psychological tactics and he may or may not have preached the gospel. But for me , the Bible has all the wisdom, truth and gospel in it. That’s how I grow and learn as a Christian, through prayer, fellowship and the study of His word. No program or method even comes close.
I was saved at a large Christian meeting where God clearly spoke to me and showed me His infinite love that Christ died to take my punishment for my sin and I am so humbled by that act of sacrificial love. That’s why I love Him. Not because of the meeting or the person speaking, but His ultimate act of love on that cross. If you don’t believe the same, then with great sadness, I would have to withdraw my previous belief of you being my brother in Christ. We can only be brothers if we are in unity with that one and only gospel of the shedding of His blood as a loving act of taking the punishment we deserve.
I do want every blessing for you, and hope you agree with and believe that gospel,
Philip
Phillip,
I think were are getting closer to understanding each other. Let me say that my understanding of Hell is a bit different than yours. Eternal torment in the lake of fire, even if it is a metaphor, is far less punishment than something I personally have experienced…loss of faith in Him. I was saved many years ago, not in a Christian meeting per se, but in a tiny bathroom, where I had gone after mentally uttering the most stupid prayer anyone could ever come up with, “God I do not know if you exist. If you do you will have to show me.”
He did, and He did so through the Gospel, through the words of a single little passage that He used to speak to me and answer every question. Suffice to say that in that instant I knew that not only was He real, but that He was there with me, and had been so from all eternity. I knew, because He told me, that He had caused that little passage to be written in answer to my prayer, 2000 years before I ever existed!!! He loves me that much, and, YES, He did suffer the horrific death on the cross personally for me, and He rose again proving to me that in His Holy Spirit I am called to be one with Him…and with all my brothers.
That was thirty-eight years ago. There have been many. many ups and downs, but His conscious presence has never left me. So, since I do know, at least for me, what I am talking about here because I, like you, have experienced something that all writings can only mirror for me. Hell, to me, is absence of Him. And, as you point out, “prayer, fellowship and the study of His word” are what matters. It is also what is missing in the lives of those faraway from Him. Eduardo called it piety, study, and action, because that is what his peers from Catholic Action called it, and it is the “program” if you will, that is the very simple “plan” he wrote into the Cursillo. In the end, as you know, He is real, a real living, close person, who wishes to be each person’s friend. I have seen so many men and women who have come to find in the experience of the Cursillo 3 day weekend a new or deeper connection to Him, and in the context of the Cursillo’s 4th day a constant, often subtle, motivation to persevere in personal prayer (piety), (study) of the Word, which is Him, and (action) as they journey to Our Father in communion with their brothers.
That’s why Cursillo works for me, because for me spreading the gospel is not about spreading a written or spoken text, (Though that is part of it). Rather it is spreading the always attractive love that is Him at work drawing all men to Himself and giving life and meaning to those written and spoken words.
Love, Charley
PS: It is no biggie, but you might notice that I do not usually spell my name with an “ie.” Words are not always that important, but their importance to a person sometimes can be seen in how carefully the person pays attention to them! You might catch my drift in the salutation above!!! It was not intentional!!! I am just not always as careful as I wish I were…Just a little humor there!!!
Charley, I have some thoughts to add, along the same lines as Philip. (Again, a great response, Philip – thank you and God bless you!) First off, I realize that we have started a second discussion thread here, discussing the Protestant vs. Catholic doctrines of salvation in addition to the three day weekends. But I don’t mind this “double thread” at all – in fact I would say this discussion re: salvation is infinitely more important than a discussion about the three day weekends. The eternal destiny of souls is at stake when we come to a discussion of salvation (more on this below).
Second, I’d like to add some comments to Philip’s, regarding the Protestant vs. Catholic doctrines of salvation. As you know, born again Protestants believe that, upon the death of sinners (those who have not personally accepted Christ as Saviour), they immediately go to Hell and later a literal, physical Lake of Fire, to receive eternal torment/punishment. And there’s the rub for many, it seems. I would say most reading this blog believe in the existence of Lucifer/Satan and his evil angels/demons. Matt. 25:41 tells us that God has prepared a place of eternal punishment (the Lake of Fire) for Satan and his angels. Most of us would say, “Yes, Satan and his angels deserve this – they should be punished, suffering torment for eternity” – they have no objection to this. But when it comes to the first part of Matt. 25:41 – which regards human beings – many people object vehemently. They say something like, “How could a loving God send the vast majority of mankind to Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternal punishment/torment alongside Satan and his angels, even for committing “little” sins like telling little white lies? We humans feel that ‘the punishment should fit the crime’ – why would God sentence good, decent people to eternal torment?”
Personally, I don’t fully understand the doctrine of eternal damnation – in my humanness I would say God seems to be unfair. But the Bible speaks of eternal punishment/torment for even a single sin however small, so I believe it – who are we to question our omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator? Plus if there is not eternal damnation for humans who commit even one sin, then as Philip asked, why did Christ come to die on Calvary? Following is literally what “Saviour” means: the One who died to SAVE us from eternal punishment/torment in the Lake of Fire. Without interpreting the Bible this way, this passage makes no sense to me as a born again Protestant: “… that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16b). Clearly the Bible teaches in this verse that humans will “perish”, and Jesus stated in another passage that many would follow the broad path that leads to destruction.
Now on to an analogy regarding the Protestant vs. Catholic views of salvation. (I realize no analogy is perfect – plus analogies are extremely simplistic when it comes to deep theological discussions such as this.) Remember back in school when we took exams? Suppose we had to take one exam to graduate from high school, and the principal announced that everyone had to score 100% on the exam to graduate (this, in spite of the fact that only one student had ever scored 100%). The principal also announced there would be a time limit on the test. And, he proclaimed there would be no do overs on the test to try to get 100%. Now suppose a group of reknowned teachers came along and conducted graduation exams differently. They would tell their students, “We realize that no one here will score 100% on your graduation exam to graduate. And, although there is a time limit on the test in this room, when the time limit here ends you will be sent to another room, where you will be given an unlimited number of attempts to retake the test trying to score 100%.”
First the Protestant view in the above analogy. Every human being (other than Christ) has fallen short of sinless perfection, the holiness God requires to live eternally in Heaven with Him. We all have sinned, we all have fallen short (Isaiah 53:6), none of us has scored 100% to “graduate” to Heaven. But Christ (being the only Person to score 100%) gave His life as a one-time sacrifice, as the perfect, sinless Lamb of God. Christ gives us His perfect score if we accept Him as Saviour, allowing us to enter Heaven. The Principal (God) has proclaimed there are no do overs on this test; also He has proclaimed there is a time limit on the test – the test ends when we die: “it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). If a person does not accept Christ as Saviour (paying the penalty of eternal punishment for our sins and thus saving us from the Lake of Fire) before he or she dies, he or she will go to Hell and later to the Lake of Fire for eternal punishment/torment.
Catholics, on the other hand, would say that every person gets do overs on the “exam” – second chances to “score 100%” after he or she dies. When the test ends (when the person dies), he or she is sent to “another room” (Purgatory). Catholics teach that Purgatory will exist eternally. Catholics also teach that a person has infinite chances to “get it right” by their human works of penance, suffering, prayers of the living, etc. to score 100% – i.e. be purified, reach sinless perfection and favor in God’s eyes, and thus enter Heaven.
Charley, if I have misunderstood or mis-stated any of the Catholic teachings regarding salvation and Purgatory, feel free to correct me. Now to my final point, my bottom line. Given the preponderance of teachings regarding God’s Day of Judgment, damnation, Hell and the Lake of Fire for humans in the 66 “Protestant” books of the Bible, I feel compelled to believe this teaching. (In fact, I’ve heard it said that the Bible mentions Judgment Day, damnation, Hell, and the Lake of Fire more often than it mentions Heaven.) As to being born again/saved, I believe one of the key requirements for becoming saved is believing in the existence of what the Saviour came to save us FROM (judgment, damnation, Hell and eternal punishment/torment in the Lake of Fire). Also, a note regarding the possibility of “scoring 100% in Purgatory. Even if Purgatory did exist, the individuals who are allegedly there would never be able to “score 100%”. Humans can only receive a score of 100% from Christ, by turning from their sinful ways, repenting of their sins and accepting Christ’s atonement for them (His blood then covering their sins on Judgment Day) – and by accepting Christ in this manner before they die.
I hope you don’t take any of this as sounding too judgmental or condemning. And I hope you are not offended when “born again Protestants” like Philip and myself say we do not believe you are a fellow brother in Christ, being born again in the so-called “Protestant” way. We truly do love all human beings, we “have a heart for the lost”. I.e., in the same manner as our Saviour, we want to see all individuals repent of their sins and be saved from eternal torment – the fate which awaits all human beings who fail to accept Christ’s substitutionary death/salvation before they die.
Between Philip’s comments and mine, I hope that helps you better understand the “born again Protestant” position on salvation. Later – God bless you – Dave
For heaven’s sake, Dave. I am not offended in the least if you do not consider me to be your brother! I do hope you do not treat me like a monkey’s uncle though, just kidding! That is definitely a whole different “thread”.
Has anyone read the book of Job? And who has answered Pilate’s most important and operative question?
I can tell you that I am quite certain that we truly are brothers. I really and truly hope that that does not offend you!!! The truth is. Well is that not it? Truth is truth. Ultimately there is only one who really knows. He is truth. He is also my brother, and I do not believe I am saved because, as a matter of fact, I am quite certain of it. I have not accepted Him as my savior. He has warmly and tenderly embraced me and told me that I am, and that you are too. And as He has called me his friend, and calls you the same…well if we are not friends, and if we do not do all we can to be friends, have we REALLY accepted Him as our savior? Have we really been born again? Are we really and truly saved? Is there not at least still a tiny bit of self-centeredness, and self-righteousness that we need to be “saved” from?
I have discovered. and if I am wrong, I rely and trust in His amazing mercy. But I have discovered that all of these things are far beyond me to understand, and when I think I do, I seem compelled to do things that actually seem to drive others away from His loving embrace rather than into His outstretched arms where I am absolutely certain He prefers them. So, although I have studied all sorts of things to far greater depth than most folks I know (I am not too sure that I am up to speed with you guys), I prefer to eliminate the negative and accentuate the positive and not mess with Mr. Inbetween. Since it is His word, and His grace, and His sacrifice, and His resurrection that have saved me, and nothing I have ever or could ever do (including believing, accepting, praying, preaching, teaching, fighting, kicking, screaming, praying in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, standing on my head, holding my tongue right, wearing the right clothes, eating the right food, fasting, making pilgrimages, well I think you catch my drift! I rely (but that is far too weak a word) on Him. All I can say is I am His. If I am saved, He alone saved me. If I burn in eternal fire, I certainly deserved it. It is of no concern of mine. He is the judge, my sole judge…and mirabile dictu!!! He is my advocate!!!! And He is pro bono to boot. How amazing is that!!!
As for Catholic doctrine, all of the important stuff on that can be found in the Catechism, written by Joe Ratzinger, and in the numerous bulls, letters, encyclicals and so on of the various popes that have been written, and I have read and studied in detail a great many of them. They are so readily available if you have any interest, on the Vatican website and the episcopal websites of various countries, especially the USA. There really is enormous wisdom in them, but it takes a bit of an open mind to really take advantage of it. That is something hard to find nowadays, especially among most Roman Catholics! As I say I have spent many years reading and studying and still do, to some extent, but what it all has come to is that I am convicted and I am persuaded and I am confirmed is most completely and profoundly expressed in the one command of Jesus Christ , my brother, my friend, my savior, my God, and in the awesome life He lived and is now living as, it seems to me, the absolutely incontrovertible proof-statement of that one command, “Love as I have loved you!”
What do you mean to say by the word “accept?” by the word “believe?” by the word “salvation?” For what it is worth, one of my most favorite quotes of Eduardo Bonnin is, “Much better than to believe you know is to know that you believe.”
So, I prefer to steer away from the points of contention. I doubt that Moses and Elijah were ever aware of all these religious and theological dictums, yet they clearly escaped the lake of fire. If not their beards would have to have been singed, a fact I really doubt Peter, James, and John would have missed in recounting the story of the Transfiguration. I do consider Mary to have been a sinless virgin, because she has been such a special mother to me. Her initial is carved in each of my palms…and yours also, ah, so we are brothers. Not only that God’s holy angel hailed her as sinless by calling her “full of grace.” Now either she was or she wasn’t. I think she was, some think she wasn’t. great. I have thirteen brothers and sisters. You should hear them argue about how my mother made this or that. This is great. people love to argue. How wonderful that they have something GOOD to argue about, especially when its impact on me and my life is so wonderfully inconsequential.
Purgatory makes some sense to me, at least right now in this wonderful Jubilee of Mercy that Pope Francis has invited us all to celebrate and contemplate. At other times I have had serious questions about it, especially in the light of the nefarious actions of some far less holy popes with regard to indulgences.
In the end, while what I do can never gain me what is my deepest desire, does that mean that I can do nothing that means anything. I must soundly reject that idea as well, at least for me personally, as I have known many others who have done even tiny things that have been of great significance in my life. I have come to know (or is it believe, or is it accept, how do I know?) that, YES I CAN DO GOOD, but only in Him is it possible. So I pray, I think, then I do something, hopefully the best I can think of to do, trusting completely (and begging Him as well) that He will let it be done to His honor and glory, or will fix any problem I cause, and will correct me as quickly and gently as He can. In the end…I am His.
Love, Charley
Dear Philip,
I just had occasion to visit the OMCC website to find info for a friend. I am interested in Eduardo Bonnin’s ideas and writings primarily because the existing Cursillos often have distortions of what I think he was trying to implement…and because the leaders and those who in the past were the sources of many distortions, in my opinion, often claim him as the authority for these very things. I am not really trying so much to “clear his name” so to speak, as I am trusting that at least a few of the people “in power” do want to do the right thing, and that their estimation of or reverence for Eduardo’s opinions might just help some of them think about things a little more critically.
In our recent conversations I believe that we have established that the really important thing is not what someone has thought, but is what some people are doing that is hurtful to others. We both hope to do something that in the end results in less hurt being done.
You have often asked for more explicit information as to the intentions that motivate the leaders of these movements. In my very short perusal of OMCC’s site I see literally dozens of written documents, on line, that provide a wealth of historical and very current information about Cursillo that seems to be exactly what you have been searching for. I also, in the past, have found much the same available from the Tres Dias International website. I have also found the top leaders I have spoken with very open to sharing this type of information with me…and I am, at least for the Cursillo in the USA, not exactly their “favorite son!” Some seem to consider me the “prodigal son” or “the elder brother,” but I have yet to meet those in “power” who consider me the “merciful father” or even his servant. Yet we do dialog.
In our little discussion, at least recently, I am wondering if we are not getting personal bias about semantics of religion and/or theological positions a tiny bit ahead of our true fundamental faith in the one who transcends all religion and all theology. After all He is. All our religious and theological musings and constructions are at their very, very best only dim reflections of the true amazing, astonishing, wonderful depth and height of His majestic glory. He is. He knows all things. We can grasp only a very little and are thus, at least in my opinion, being truest to Him when we do as He has commanded, and very clearly done so in His awesome WORD, in His personal humility of His passion and bloody self-sacrifice, and most especially in His astounding and singular almighty resurrection and outpouring of His very Spirit of love and eternal life to us puny creatures who, for reasons I will never be able to comprehend, He loves passionately. Literally, PASSION-ately.
Keep up the good work of challenging every leader to think. You are in good company there and history shows that one of your most consistent companions was Sr. Eduardo Bonnin. Check out his little article on “Agents of Change” that you can find on the OMCC website. I have printed it in pamphlet form and hand it out to leaders. I have yet to find any of them, except my precious wife, who will even admit to reading it…. And I pretty much forced her to do so!
Love, Charley
Hi Charley/Charles,
I do beg your pardon with my slip of the keyboard In misspelling your name. I know some other “Charlie’s” and so I had slipped into a different mode. I had noticed you misspelt my name with 2 l’s on occasion, but it’s something which I am well used to and usually never draw attention to it unless it really matters on forms and such like. (it’s not the worst version of my name I have been called!!) However I will take your point in good humour! (notice how we spell humour/humor differently too!!)
Regarding any personal bias about semantics of religion/theology, my personal faith depends on just what I have said and without it, I would almost definitely be an atheist. “Jesus dying for my sins” Is a term with a very definite meaning to me and that is the one who deserves no death, dying in order to take my punishment for my sins. No other meaning makes any sense to me and if I try to alter it, my faith folds and I am left with nothing.
Thankfully the Bible verifies that position and convicts me of my sin and the punishment for it. It’s unambiguous and clear. I cannot be a Christian without that truth. And regardless of religion/theology, God’s truth is what really matters. God’s total intolerance of sin and His demand for blood to be shed as the price to pay in redemption is an absolute Biblical truth.
While it is certainly true that we cannot hope to grasp all that He is, we can certainly grasp His truth regarding sin, punishment and redemption. It is there in the Bible for all to read. And no amount of allegorising can change it.
All of this means that any discussion about Eduardo Bonnin falls under the same misalignment of our differences – crucial differences as is now coming to light. It is not enough to focus on God’s love without referencing God’s wrath. They are both Biblical concepts of God. One does not exist without the other.
You speak out against methods of manipulation in Cursillo and I applaud you for that. I will look through the OMCC website to see what gives and if any documents relate to activities at the weekends. But it’s now becoming clear to me that Dave was right to highlight that the gospel is perceived fundamentally different to the Biblical account of sin and God’s provision for redemption. It has always seemed to be so in the Catholic Church and seems no different if Cursillo aligns with your concept.
While I was born into a mainstream Protestant denomination, my wife was born into the Catholic Church denomination. We both came through different paths to recognise God’s salvation was Jesus paying the penalty for sin in our place. The truth was obvious to each of us and once seen, could not be unseen! It is so fundamental and obvious to each of us, that any other perception of what the gospel is makes no sense in comparison. It is the real gospel!
So Charley (yes, got that right, phew!), we are at odds here I feel. I do pray for you to see this too. You seem to go head over heels for one side of God, but cannot acknowledge the other. But both are Biblical and His truth whether you accept it or not.
Blessings,
Philip/Phillip/Phil/Pip etc. etc.
PS, thank you Dave for your encouragement. I try to keep on the Cursillo theme, but as you point out, you don’t mind the “double thread” and it does seem to be crucial.
Well! I like Pip best. It reminds me of a really great story of a man who had high hopes. Very metaphorical and allegorical to me!
I do think we are much, much closer in mind and heart than we can find ways and words to express. I find no disagreement with what you say about sin and salvation, and actually I feel I know these things from a very experiential basis. At least the Cursillo has helped me find focus and confirmation. I believe it has simply been something He has used in my life. Now I am not referring to any organization or group of leaders or any thing like that. Rather the simple ideas, that are so deep and profound that are continually expressed in my life of piety study and action and in the close moments I experience with my true friend.
I am well aware of sin and the consequences it deserves. It is not correct to think I take them lightly. I have clearly experienced them in my life and the lives of others. It is simply that in absolutely every case, and by His grace alone, I have experienced that He overcomes, or should I say has overcome, all consequences giving me peace and joy so sublime that I am simply at a loss for words. Perhaps I am different from many others. If so it is by His grace alone, for I am convicted that He desires this peace and joy for every single person. All that is needed is, as one of you so aptly put it, to repent and turn to him. My aim is simply to live my life in such a way that people who do not know Him might come to know Him because they know me. I think He is counting on me to try, with His abundant help, to do just that. Not because He needs me, but because He loves me and wishes to share the wonderful deep joy of experiencing Him at work saving me and others, often at the same time, with the most amazing convoluted series of events, like, but not limited too, three or four guys sharing Him on a Blog!!!
Some of my friends love the picture of Jesus at the door. One of them one time, might have been in a Cursillo, pointed out that in the picture there is no doorknob. He felt this meant that the door must be opened from the inside. Later I explained to him that it was even more profound than that. The guy on the outside is Jesus. There is no need to Open the door. All one need do is say, “Come in”, and really mean it. There is no door that can keep Him out if a man wants Him in.
Love, Charley
Hi Charley,
I have been reading the document “Society Change Agents” you recommended and I find it extremely frustrating. There are certainly points where I agree with Eduardo Bonnin and yet…….
Let me begin by saying, yes he does speak against manipulation and those who try to use Cursillo to effect change without regard to the will of the individual. Fair enough, but I have found, as I said before, that documentation within Walk to Emmaus also says this. Many within the organisation would insist that they do not manipulate. They speak out against it, even against some specifics that have happened such as individuals being coerced to stay when they wanted to leave.
But examination of the methods in which they partake at every weekend they serve, shows the clear manipulation they speak against is happening with their approval. That’s why, if I am to decide on Eduardo Bonnin’s Cursillo, I need to examine what actually happens at the weekends themselves. His speaking against it is not enough.
Now for the part that frustrates me. Reading through this document, I felt like shouting at the top of my voice “JUST READ THE BIBLE, FORGET ABOUT CURSILLO!!!”
Now you may be pleased to hear I didn’t shout it (or maybe you think I should!) but I certainly felt it! Eduardo Bonnin is not defending or contending for the gospel (and I’ll come to that in a moment), he is defending and contending for Cursillo. It should not be.
As I said, I was saved at a large Christian meeting. At it, God showed me what Jesus did for me, in paying the penalty/punishment in my place for the sin in my life and all I had to do was accept it to be saved. At that meeting, there was what people call an “altar call” for those who truly want to repent and be saved to come forward and I did. There are those, and I now count myself among them, who criticise altar calls because they are not Biblical and they do not necessarily mean the person who goes forward is sincere, but may have been motivated by emotion.
So even though the “altar call” happened to me, I do criticise it because of it not being a method endorsed by God but open to abuse and therefore unreliable. But I also realise that all methods are open to abuse and therefore unreliable. So I will never defend or contend for a method other than what God has set out in the Bible. They are His ways and not ours. Yes they are also open to abuse but they have His foundation in the Bible which no other methods have. Consequently, it is right to defend and contend for them.
For me, Cursillo is so entrenched in Roman Catholicism that I cannot have any enthusiasm for it. What I see is someone wading in mud and mire, telling folks that there is firmer mud and mire over here when all he has to do is step out of it altogether and tell others to do the same. Having stepped out of the mud and mire of my own birth denomination, I know how freeing that is and I certainly don’t want to go back. My wife feels the same after leaving the Roman Catholic Church. The mud and mire only cling and hold you back from the freedom of the firm ground that the gospel gives.
Regarding the “gospel”, Eduardo Bonnin defines the “Good News” as “God, in Christ, loves him/her”. That is not the gospel. It is certainly part of it, but does not explain the actual good news that because of His love, Jesus paid the penalty for sin in His death and, in His resurrection, offers eternal life to all who will accept it. That’s the gospel the “good news”.
I expect you to say that this is just semantics but I won’t accept that. As opposed to a certain president trying to confuse by squirming out of the definition of the word “is”, the definition of the gospel is crucial.
If I was to say to folks that chocolate is wonderful and will change your life and used the word “gospel” to reference that “good news”, then any time the word gospel is used by others without defining what is meant, it would have me, and those agreeing with me, thinking about wonderful life changing chocolate. So you could ask me if I knew the gospel and I would say yes and we would be in agreement. But when you examine what I mean by “gospel” in this example, you could never be in agreement (at least I hope not!) It’s a ridiculous comparison I know, but it highlights the need for a clear definition of “gospel”.
Recently, I had occasion to speak with some Jehovah’s Witnesses. The first question I asked is “how is a person saved?” The man taking the lead (the two I talked to were both lovely people by the way) answered with a vague answer along the lines of God working inside a person to draw them to Himself and asked is that what I mean. I said no, not really and proceeded to explain the gospel in detail. Every thing I said, he agreed with me (I was picking the order of my explanation according to whatever came to my mind as I was saying it), until I said at the very end that Jesus had to be 100% divine and 100% man to pay the penalty for sin. That is when he said no.
But he was agreeing down the line with all the rest and there was much we had in common, including Jesus paying the penalty for sin and being the only sinless person who ever lived. I believe God was showing me (and maybe the JW) that the gospel needs to be clearly defined in detail. Only then will crucial differences emerge and people find they are not really in agreement. If I had not stated that at the end of my explanation of the gospel, the JW and I would have been in complete agreement! A thought which had a profound effect on my assumptions of what people mean by the term “gospel”.
So now I’ve managed to do the “double thread” thing again, (sorry Dave!) but I find Cursillo in all its forms to be choking my freedom in Christ at least in one way or another. It’s like going back instead of going forward to me and I still feel I have only just started out on my walk with Him even though it’s been over 40 years!. My desire for others is that they set out on this walk with Him too, But when they do, to step out of the mud and mire of religion onto the firm ground of the true gospel. Telling folks that Jesus loves them is not spreading the gospel. Telling them that by accepting the once for all sacrifice that Jesus did, they are freed from the penalty for sin on His account and that by His resurrection they are assured of eternal life with the Father in heaven, is the spreading the gospel. Now that’s good news indeed. In my childhood years, I heard a lot about Jesus loving me. It didn’t effect any change in me. Only when I saw the true gospel did His love mean anything to me. And now it means everything to me!
Blessings,
Philip
Philip!!!
At last I see we are one!!! The gospel by any name is the same. The Gospel is a person!!! It is the Word of God. It is Jesus, Emmanuel, God with us. It is so incredibly simple, yet so profoundly deep. There is no “understanding” it. Forty years living it (with lots of ups and downs) is like a second, just a brief moment.
As for Cursillo, it is unimportant in the big picture. In Society Change Agents Eduardo is addressing the leaders of South America for the benefit of millions of Cursillistas. I do not read it as defending Cursillo, but as admonishing (in a very direct, yet humble fashion) the leaders, nearly all of them, especially the fellow who spread Cursillo all over South America, Fr. Gil.
I can see great wisdom in His approach of not directing people to read the bivle. Illiteracy was rampant in his ultimate audience. What he was always doing was challenging people who thought they were the leaders to BE THE GOSPEL! Cursillo, at least the three days, was always just a first baby step for him. When you are in the mud and the mire, it might take a step or two onto more solid mud to at least hold on until you get pulled out!
Anyway, as you know that I am not defending Cursillo but simply letting you know how happy I am that you are shining light on the problems that I am constantly calling my friends to task for. The target for Eduardo that he wrote the Cursillo for were far away people. People who would certainly not often find themselves in a “large Christian Gathering” or anywhere near an altar call. His simple idea was and is, God has brought certain people into my life who do not know Jesus. Perhaps He wishes me to be of use to Him in getting them to know Him. With that in mind, and since the so-called leaders who often do crazy coercive things, claim they respect Eduardo and follow Him, and finally, since I have come to know that they are not, because it is clear they are going down quite the opposite path, I just keep directing them to his wisdom in his words. By the way they never try to refute me with the bible. Any reading of it throws so much light on the errors of treating people badly.
Co-incidentally (if you believe in coincidence) Mary and I had breakfast yesterday with a JW friend. She gave me her little book in which I discovered (before it accidentally fell into the toilet!!!) That the JW’s think they are better and know better what God wants than other people do. They have concluded that God loves “clean” people more than He loves other people. I do not think they know Him, at least not as I do. I know, as you have pointed out, that He literally went through hell for dirty people, like me and you. I suppose He did not have to do that for clean people. If that is not love, I do not know what is. So to my way of thinking, I have seen the proof that He loves sinners, as for the holy people, well that’s their problem.
Love Charley
Hi Charley,
I’m doing another double post in adding this one, I have just read the document “Agents of Regeneration” on the OMCC website which I’m assuming is the one you refer to as “Agents of Change” but it doesn’t seem to indicate anything about methods used at the Cursillo weekends (which is what I am looking for).
This is the link:
http://www.orgmcc.org/en/news/154-european-ultreya-2015?highlight=WyJhZ2VudHMiLCJvZiIsInJlZ2VuZXJhdGlvbiIsImFnZW50cyBvZiIsImFnZW50cyBvZiByZWdlbmVyYXRpb24iLCJvZiByZWdlbmVyYXRpb24iXQ==
What I do see are references to the same sort of teaching in Walk to Emmaus which I am also vocal in opposing. The notion that “Christ is counting on you” is one I especially highlight as being false. This falls into the category of us helping Him and He depends on that help. (counting on = depending on). I always point out we count on Him but he never counts on us. (and it’s just as well!!)
The idea that Cursillo transforms lives is also present in Walk to Emmaus and is also something I fundamentally disagree with. God transforms lives, programs do not.
Cursillo is very definitely confirmed as a Roman Catholic Church Movement as opposed to a Christian pan-denominational movement. And so non-Catholic organisations need to be ultra cautious of accepting any teaching from it. Some of the bad teaching has definitely survived the “adaptation” to a non-Catholic program.
I can say more but it should be clear that I cannot agree with this document in regards to its doctrine, and it is silent on the methods of Cursillo weekends.
I will continue to peruse the website in the coming days/weeks.
Blessings,
Philip
I am not aware of the article you read, but will read it. Here is the one I was speaking of SOCIETY CHANGE AGENTS
Click to access SOCIETY%20CHANGE%20AGENTS-eng13-35.pdf
It will not give you the detail you speak of. It does illustrate a bit of Eduardo’s constant attempt to direct folks back to the simplicity of the Gospel as opposed to Church machinations. As mentioned before what we are experiencing is not generally what Eduardo intended. I think what he intended is far better…though certainly not perfect, and certainly not the only or perhaps even a really good way to do what we are all, in my opinion, called to do, namely proclaim the Good News to every creature.
The one you read seems to be a part of the dialog between Church folks inside the organizational structure that is assuming authority for the movement (at least in the Roman Catholic circles) and is seeking to cement the approval of the Vatican authorities to justify its existence and its place. No doubt they are trying to do good things…but I am quite certain you would be very opposed to it. , as they often see their legitimacy more in terms of what the “Church” thinks than in what God thinks…hopefully there is a parallel, but as we both know history shows us that they are not always congruent!
It is interesting (could it be a special message from Him?) that Mary and I attended a local Tres Dias Closing here yesterday evening. There we heard between 40-50 men of various ages and backgrounds make statements about their experience. Every one of them was positive. After that the local president addressed them. Among the things he told them, and did so quite sternly and directly, was that nothing was to be considered secret about their experience in the event they wished to invite others to come to tres dias. He also issued one very strong mandate by saying something like, “I heard some of you say that you were changed this weekend. Now I want to tell you that if you feel that way you are not to say Tres Dias changed you. If you were changed it was Christ who changed you.” This statement was met with a general and vocal affirmative from the candidates as well as many in the audience…including Mary and yours truly, of course! It’s just a little anecdotal occurrence that may be something He is involved in as confirmation for you, and perhaps in part as a result of your willingness to be critical and thereby helpful.
Love, Charley
Thanks Charley,
Yes, a very different document. Give me a while to digest it. Regarding the Tres Dias closing, a similar thing is said in Walk to Emmaus closing but other Walk to Emmaus literature gives a different slant by saying answer all questions asked but you don’t have to reveal some unique experiences. Also those unaware of what happens are not going to know the right questions to ask in the first place. A bit of double talk I would suggest!
I’m also highly suspicious of an event where everyone is positive. A bit like a politician getting 100% of the vote. We all know the type of country where that happens. And where there is not 100% positivity, then that gives us the opportunity to assess positive and negative points to draw conclusions. Also independent critical assessment is crucial rather than relying on only those who have attended.
I agree that saying Christ has changed you rather than Tres Dias has changed you is positive, but in practise, the weekend tends to get the glory anyway. It’s amazing to me how many people defend the program when others criticise it rather than pointing to the fact, if it is a fact, that it was Christ and not the weekend program that changed them. That to me shows a flaw in the program, that so many defend it regardless of what is said in closing. Somehow it doesn’t register that they are doing the opposite when defending it.
Blessings,
Philip
Thanks very much Philip,
I hope you do not think that I am defending anything…or opposing anything (except things that I think are sinful, even then I am no one’s judge, and am open to correction). As you point out so very often and so very well Christ is everything. He certainly does not need me to defend Him!!! In fact I am well aware of how He treated those who tried to do so!!! Everyone of them ended up with plenty of egg on his face.
Here is the truth. He is. He is spirit. He is spirit made flesh (one of us…and all of us) in Jesus the Christ. And in the flesh He spoke, He touched, He laughed, He cried, and He is still doing so even today, some 2000 years into His glorious resurrected life among us. In touching us He used things. He used bread. He used wine. He used fish, and baskets, and disciples, and, yes, a whip!…and He is still doing so, even much more so today. Today He even uses books, and radio, and television, and even the internet, for God’s sake! And, yes, He still uses His living disciples and apostles to touch us. If anything good happens anywhere at anytime, it is Him at work defending us. To me Cursillo is simply (like the bible study sessions, and the fellowship sessions, and the preaching, and teaching….) a way He uses to touch us. Is it His fault that, by giving us freedom, some of us knuckleheads screw up and do the wrong thing!!!
Anyway, that is why I do what I do and try to help people work together and pray together and be friends together trying to figure out as best we can what He is doing, so that we might be of use to Him…or at least do not get in His way too much. That’s why I am so grateful to you guys for your passion at pointing out our many deficiencies.
It is strange that just today I received an e-mail linking me to Eduardo’s 2000 address to a World meeting in Rome.
Click to access nmail0416.pdf
Of course he was addressing Catholics and spoke with sensitivity to their foibles, but it is a very clear statement of his mentality and it does throw some light on the issue about the Holy Spirit’s role in all this, at least from his perspective.
BTW: I am sorry that 100% positive concerns you, and I certainly understand why. I simply must tell the truth. I do remember one Cursillo where I heard a somewhat negative testimony. It was from a Catholic priest who was a friend of mine. He had felt a little pressured to attend (not from me. I laughed at him when he told me he had painted himself into a corner by asking his pastor for the weekend off expecting to be turned down giving him a good excuse to tell the person who was bugging him. Then some lunk-head called him reminding him to bring money to pay for it. I laughed at him and told him we do not charge priests so he could keep his money. All he needed to bring was his teddy-bear. I think he got mad at me for a bit), Anyway he pretty much did what he could during the weekend to avoid things and people. At the closing his comments were along the line that he had already been to many “retreats” and workshops, and so on, so he did not have any “peak experience”. He commented that the schedule was “daunting” so what he was going to do was go home and sleep! He is still a good friend. We worked together in the parish for some time. Then he was moved to Canada. We visited him there last summer.
Love, Charley
Hi Charley,
Because of different time zones, our responses are a little out of sync. But regarding your link to Eduardo Bonnin’s address to a meeting in Rome 2000, I have now read this. Sadly, all I am seeing is confirming for me that the basis for Cursillo is wrong. I don’t see anything to alter my thinking at all.
For Eduardo Bonnin to claim that Cursillo is “a plan from the Spirit of God” is a very wrong thing to say. It is placing Cursillo beyond the bounds of criticism. it makes any criticism of Cursillo to be against God and against the work of the Holy Spirit. I could just as easily say my posts on this blog are the work of the Holy Spirit when I do not have the authority to say it or claim such a thing. It would mean if you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing with the Holy Spirit. Can you not see how wrong that is?
I’m sorry to say that your links to what Eduardo Bonnin said, while not being conclusive on methods used during the weekends, are just showing me how far off he is on the origins of his own program. While I do not say he is deliberately misleading, I am saying he himself believes his program is God’s work, a belief which is delusional.
I do not see Cursillo as just “a way He touches us”. It’s founder has claimed it is the work of God. If that’s how he intended it to be attributed, then he was way off. That attitude has permeated from him into all forms of Cursillo. Time and again I have come across the attitude that the program is perfect, the way it’s applied must have been wrong or the people attending had the wrong attitude etc. etc.
I wouldn’t have laughed at your priest friend. I would have noted his negativity and taken on board what he said. He said something that implied people were expecting a “peak experience”. Why did he have that impression? Why did he find the schedule “daunting”?
These are two complaints I have heard regarding Walk to Emmaus. Expecting a “peak experience” is an attitude that Walk to Emmaus want people to have. One Emmaus booklet I have denies that should happen, yet in the same booklet Emmaus is said to be, at best, a mountaintop experience. Who’s fooling who?
A daunting schedule is a cult method designed to keep people from assessing their experience before it is over, and by then it’s too late. Bible teaching or any teaching about God should never be done in a “daunting” schedule. That’s manipulation.
So I would acknowledge your priest friend as someone who may have had valid points to make. You may have seen him as someone being negative, and you obviously know him when I don’t, but his points ring true to me and cause further suspicion on manipulation at Cursillo.
Curiously enough, a friend of mine found the schedule at Emmaus too daunting and wanted to take a break, but he was pressured to continue the schedule. He left early and was criticised for being too negative. Do I now see the same with Cursillo?
Blessings,
Philip
Philip,
Is the Holy Spirit operative today, or is He someone who was active a long time ago?
Hi Charley,
Of course the Holy Spirit is operative today. But what He uses is often man’s disobedience or the devil’s work because He works everything for good (Romans 8:28).
What that means is nobody can claim, because people were led to the gospel, that the method was the work of the Holy Spirit. Very often, people are saved in spite of the methods, not because of them. He overrules them. That’s what happened in my case. I know the methods did not lead me to my Saviour, He did it in spite of the methods. That’s why I am free to criticise those methods and any methods which do not have His sanction in scripture.
You have been very adept at avoiding saying much about methods used at Cursillo, the very thing which aroused my suspicions regarding Walk to Emmaus. However, there does seem to me to be some common points with Cursillo and Walk to Emmaus which I would call manipulations.
1) The use of friendship to invite folks to the weekends. This is a 101 method of cults. Friendship is for friendship, not to promote programs. 2) The program is deemed to be God’s work. Again a 101 cult method. The program is not God’s work. It is the work of man. 3) Intensive schedule. Another cult 101 method. Subjecting folks to an intensive schedule in God’s name is not being mindful of the will of the individual. It is abusive. 4) Expecting a “peak experience”. Classic cult 101 technique. Telling folks that the weekend provides an environment where they can encounter Jesus is manipulation of expectations and highly unethical. 5) Having a closing time where folks are encouraged to relate their impressions of their experience. Cult 101 again! Putting people in a position where they feel they should say what they think of their experience at Cursillo in front of a group who are obviously expecting them to say how wonderful it was, is manipulation. 6) Follow up groups maintaining contact with those who attended. Oh dear, cult 101 again! This is nothing more than subtle pressure to make sure a group keeps their victim in the circle.
Now you may tell me none of these methods are used but at the moment, I am left with trying to glean them from your comments and Eduardo Bonnin’s writings, as closely guarded as they are. If they are not used, then what is? Spit it out!!!
Or perhaps you will say that they, or some of them, do happen but I’ve got the motivation all wrong. Such has been said to me regarding Walk to Emmaus. My answer has always been that all these methods are strongly associated with cults. Why should a Christian organisation end up using them when the inevitable will happen and people will say that they are doing the same as cults?
Personal freedom in Christ means that a person is free to pray, study scripture and fellowship according to God’s timing not a program schedule. My suspicion is that Cursillo is run on a schedule which is assumed by its founder to be God’s schedule when it obviously is not.
From the outset, I do see you defending Cursillo as Eduardo Bonnin intended. You speak a lot about his wisdom and his words. The effect has been that, for me at least, you are pointing to Eduardo Bonnin and what he says to show how wonderful he and his program are. If that was not your intention, then please drop the defence of Cursillo and Eduardo Bonnin. You say he didn’t tell people to read the Bible because of illiteracy. Then simply teach the Bible. That still doesn’t need a three day program. My exhortation to read the Bible was to Eduardo Bonnin, not his followers. If he did that, he would have known his program was not the work of the Holy Spirit.
I have tried to prise from you on this blog, the methods used at his Cursillo but you have been most evasive on that. If I have to go to someone privately in order to get this information, then it is secretive and therefore manipulative. None of Eduardo’s writings that I have seen give any description of what Cursillo entails. It would have been very easy to do so unless he wanted to withhold the information to maximise the effect of the weekend. This is not God’s way.
Whenever you describe the gospel to me, I don’t fully recognise it. You seem to just pick one aspect of it and say that’s it. But it isn’t. The gospel is, that out His love for us, Christ being God took the punishment that we all deserve on Himself and that we do not have to face eternal punishment but have eternal life with Him if we accept that one gift. He did it out of His agape love. God with us is the outcome of that act, the result of the gospel. His love for us is why He offers the gospel to all.
He loves us is not the gospel and He is with us is not the gospel although both are part of it. Whenever you say it, you leave out the ugly bit. But the ugly bit is essential. Without it there is no gospel. And when you leave it out, I don’t recognise it. The shedding of His blood is the very act of the gospel. I have not seen any reference to it in Eduardo Bonnin’s writings so far. And so it sounds like a different gospel to me.
Sadly Charley, I am not convinced we are one. Your incomplete gospel message is damaging any possible agreement on it.
Blessings,
Philip
Philip, thank you once again for your comments. A great list of problems seen in the three day weekends. Also a great summary IMHO of the opposing gospel/salvation positions – born again Protestant vs. Catholic and quasi-Catholic views. You’ve been a wonderful help backing up my born again Protestant views. Also, your knowledge and background have been invaluable, since 1) I do not come from a Catholic or quasi-Catholic upbringing, and 2) I have never attended a three day weekend retreat. Keep up the good work – you have a great witness for Christ in this blog (and in many other venues as well I’m sure).
Have you considered “growing your ministry” by 1) setting up a blog, 2) joining Facebook, 3) setting up a Facebook Group and/or Page (I’ve tried both – Groups are easier to manage I think), and/or 4) setting up a website? Do you have any of these yet? I hope so – I’d love to read more of your writings.
Well that’s it for now. Gotta run – not literally :). Later – God bless you Philip – Dave
Hi Dave,
Thank you for your encouragement. I haven’t set up a blog or website and I don’t even have a Facebook account! My posting began after trying to get to the bottom of Walk to Emmaus which had found its way into my church and I couldn’t get any information about it from those who had attended. Yet it was portrayed as a “wonderful experience”.
According to the Bible, the disciples on the road to Emmaus told others about their wonderful experience, without any cajoling or questions, and as they did, Jesus appeared to the others. So I wondered how come the Walk to Emmaus participants were keeping so silent about it? That’s when I started to dig and it took me a long time to find the information. It still wasn’t making any sense to me even then. The teachings were ecumenical and I couldn’t see anything special about them.
But then I started to investigate the activities of cults, and that was when I began to see many similarities between the methods of cults and the methods of Walk to Emmaus. It wasn’t just the attitudes of the participants, it was the nature of the event itself that was wrong. The list I wrote before is just a short version of the cult-type methods used.
And because cults get people to believe stuff that normal intelligent people would not believe, it became obvious to me that the methods were, in a sense, more dangerous than the teachings. The methods evoke emotional experiences which folks then associate with the teachings of the group.
I’m sure Terry can say more from first hand experience what these methods do but I can only say from my research.
What I was seeing in my church was folks trying to recruit others to go without telling them anything about it. Even though Walk to Emmaus insists there are no secrets, the program is set up to depend on information being withheld to maximise emotional impact. I have since noticed a swing towards ecumenism in my church and I know from experience ecumenism is a dead duck. The gospel is always the first victim of it.
Thank you for your blog. It is an encouragement to me and one of the more respectful ones to different perspectives I have come across.
Thanks again Dave and Blessings,
Philip
Yes, Thank you Dave,
Also, to Philip, I am sorry that your friends from WTE felt they needed to be so secretive. Not by way of “defending” but only to try to set the record straight, Eduardo always stood against secrecy and most especially the activities that Philip described being used by his friends. He often wrote about it and spoke about it. In one place he wrote that such behaviors were counter his intentions because he did not want anyone after the weekend experience upon reflection to be concerned that what they experienced (and that would be different for each person) was a result of manipulation by men rather than the action of God’s grace.
Love, Charley
Interesting Philip,
From your first two paragraphs I gather that you believe, at least in your personal experience, that the Holy Spirit was somehow working in you, in your heart and mind, and that the reality of His personal “grace” in you converted or changed you in reaction to the circumstances of the “large Christian gathering” you have mentioned before. In essence, please bear with me for a moment, It was the power of God in His Holy Spirit of Jesus at work in your heart and mind that transformed your will leading you to give yourself over to your savior and Lord, Jesus. And also that you are aware that this conversion was so deep in you and led you to a place far beyond where the gathering seemed to be calling you to go. So different that it seems to you that the Holy Spirit’s success for you was quite despite the stimuli and circumstances of the “large Christian Gathering.” Have I understood you correctly?
Moving on, Philip,
I am sorry that you feel I have been avoiding anything, I really am trying to be as transparent as possible. I am a little flattered that you consider me adept at it though, as most people think I am just a clutz. I have often been “advised” that if I want to convince anyone of anything I need to take a different “approach.” People seem not to believe me when I protest that I do not want to convince anyone of anything. All I wish to do, and I think, hope, and pray, that I will never stop, is simply share what I have come to know is true, “God loves each person, deeply, and passionately, and continues to do so at all times.” This is what I am compelled to do because it has given me such deep joy that I cannot help it. Actually this is, as best I can understand it, the “method” of Cursillo. To me any of the activities you condemn are contrary to the “method” as I understand it. The reason that I speak so much about Eduardo is that, very late in my career, I discovered that he saw things the same way I do (only much more deeply I expect) and that these other “methods” that I was so opposed to he had also, from early on, opposed as well. In fact he opposed them so vigorously that the “powers that be” did a great deal to cage him or control him. That they were able to continue on and incorporate their distortions is a sad fact. That Eduardo persevered, and that his wisdom is now being slowly embraced by leaders around the world is nothing short of miraculous (to me).
As for your six point analysis of Cursillo and cults:
1) Friendship is the method of Cursillo. Make a friend, be a friend, bring (or make) your friend a friend of Christ. People in Cults eat, sleep, speak, have sex. Does this mean that one should avoid these things. Friendship is crucial, and crucial in the Christian walk. By the way, trying to manipulate, coerce, or dupe another person is quite the opposite of friendship. Trying to share the most precious things in your life that have helped you find joy and purpose and SALVATION, is what I consider 101 not of cults…but of friendship. Of course it must be done with no strings attached and giving absolute freedom to others. Why? That is how He has treated us!
2) God’s work/work of man. Perhaps I am very wrong on this but I have come to the conclusion that anything good is of God. God is love. There is no fear in God. The Cursillo is certainly a work of man. When it is also a work of God (in other words when it is operating in such a way that He is free to use it to produce good for others) then good happens and the fruits are those found in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. Where the other fruits are in evidence you can be certain it is not a work of God, or is far, far short of the Godly work it could be. Since God in Jesus has set us free, any coercive or enslaving tactics are anathema! This I think is quite opposite in the dangerous cults you have in mind.
3) Intensive schedule. The weekend consists of five talks each day each intended to be 30-45 minutes long, followed by a discussion period of 20-30 minutes. That is 5-6 hours time in a 14-16 hour period. This leaves plenty of “free time” which Eduardo intended to be time for developing friendship (not the cultic manipulative thing that is, of course, not friendship at all). It is time for people to get to know one another better, with the sincere faith that God who is really and truly ever present might be at work helping people come to know, love, and serve Him and one another better. Of course the “wiser minds” often are a little uncomfortable with “free time” and set about to fill it with exercises they believe will help “demonstrate” God’s love. I say to them, either God loves or He doesn’t. There is no need to demonstrate it. What is needed is to live it and let the demonstration part be His job.
4) Expecting a “peak experience”… The operative word here is expect. I have experienced the most astonishing things in my life, especially here near the end of it, that I quite literally expect peak experiences all the time, and at any moment. No doubt Moses was expecting something when he came upon a glow on the mountain. The burning bush was definitely a peak experience that changed him profoundly. The life he lived out as a result has proven to make that a encounter with I Am a peak experience for all mankind. I expect that as Moses lived the rest of his life he came to be more and more expectant of peak experiences as he watched them play out in his life and through his friendship…yes…with Jesus. The distortions are quite the opposite. They are devised by people with no or very little faith in an attempt to “conjure up the Holy Spirit” because they simply are not able to believe that He is quite capable of blowing where He wills, and can be counted on to be present where people believe and trust Him to be at work even when THEY CANNOT SEE HIM. I can tell you that I have witnessed and heard of many peak experiences that have happened in relation to Cursillo weekends, and a vast number more that have happened in the ongoing friendship of Cursillo Groups living their 4th day. All of these put together are of no consequence at all compared to the amazing things God is doing all the time. And nothing ranks above a peanut to the astonishing and incredible reality that He became and still is one of us Who gave His precious life for us and Rose to prove to us very skeptical creatures that He is the Lord of life, and then, how incredible is this!!! He has poured out His very Spirit into our hearts to be with us in intimate communion drawing us to Him and one another until He sees fit to come back again! Expecting peak experiences is the only way to live the Christian life. Trying to or believing that you can engineer them is something quite antithetical to it! I expect that is what you see in cult leaders.
5) Testimony… As you can see from the above it is quite difficult for me not to proclaim such a special moment of grace as coming to know, even if only a little better, the friend, the real and true friend Who is Jesus Christ. This has been true for all time, in my book. It is certainly illustrated copiously in the New Testament. One might say that the New Testament is the revelation of the peak experience of all time for all mankind in such a way that it, itself, has continued to be the peak experience in the lives of countless individuals and in the life of the Church for all time. It is the Living Word of God. Inviting others to do this at a closing could be considered a subtle form of coercion, or an opportunity to let a person share his experience. In our local Cursillos the opportunity is offered and people are free to share or not. Some do. Some do not. Personally I think this is the proper way to do it
6) Follow up groups in the Cursillo are intended to be regular gatherings of friends sharing their current and recent peak experiences in living the Gospel, ie friendship with Jesus. Many attempts have been made and no doubt will continue to be made by us poor fallen people to control them and manipulate them and turn them into other things. In my experience these attempts always fail and die away pretty quickly. I know that is anecdotal, and I have heard of folks who try to boss others around and think they are being successful at it. People just won’t put up with such silliness, at least not here in the USA. They will see, and if not, ultimately they will have to explain it to St. Pete, I suppose.
Again, I am not trying to convince you of anything. And what I share about my personal experience is what I have experienced and drawn conclusions from. I really doubt you could persuade me that I have in any way been duped by other people here. I can tell you that every iteration of Cursillo I have witnessed…including Mallorca…can be better. I am also convinced that the Holy Spirit is the only one who can make it so. Since it has spread all over the world, I really doubt I could have much influence on it one way or the other, yet I do feel compelled to keep sharing with the people who think they are in charge of it what I see. In doing so I am always encouraging them to “lighten up.” To pray, pray, pray. To listen to Him especially in the least (from their vaunted vantage point) of His brethren. And to “Let Him work!”
As Eduardo once said, there are only two essentials, my faith and His power. One must continually guard not to get confused about which is which!
Love Charley
Hi Charley,
I will respond to your posts here but it may be my final one for the moment. Debating Cursillo is currently taking up too much of my time! And we seem to be going around in circles a bit.
1) At last you give some indication of Cursillo activities. My concern with the use of friendship is that, in my experience with WTE, folks invite friends to the weekend expecting them to have a similar experience. That’s wrong in itself, but what’s even more wrong is they are expected to invite them. Now maybe this doesn’t happen with your ideal Cursillo, but it does with WTE and other forms of Cursillo. Sharing your faith is one thing. Wanting friends to experience Cursillo is another and wrong. There is more I could say here but it leads to yet another “thread within a thread”!
2) You acknowledge that Cursillo is the work of man. Eduardo Bonnin did not. He intimated that it is the work of the Holy Spirit. That is a serious flaw. The consequences of that claim are still as strong as ever and causing major problems. Anyone who thinks the program is God’s program is seriously deluded. And it stems from the very founder of Cursillo.
3) 5-6 hours over a 14-16 hour period is not as easy as it seems. The talks seem to be set up in such a way as to be unsettling, Certainly in WTE they are. Break times are not consistent and folks can never really relax during those times because they know there’s yet another talk ahead.
If someone wants to take a break because they don’t want to attend one or two talks, are they let do that without being told they really should attend the talks? The evidence I have seen with WTE is that they are subtly and ever so nicely told to attend the talks.
4) If folks are told they are going into an environment which provides for an encounter with Jesus, that is simply manipulation. Are they told this? The experience of the disciples on the road to Emmaus in the Bible proves there is no environment that “provides” for an encounter with Him. He chooses when and where, not man. if man tries to do it, it’s manipulating not just people, but trying to manipulate God also. You say it’s wrong to “conjure up” the Holy Spirit and I agree. But if Cursillo is said to provide for an encounter with Jesus, that’s the same thing.
5) The whole concept of inviting folks to give a testimony at the closing is manipulation. It indicates that there is an expectation that something special happened that they can attest to. That follows on from the perception that Cursillo provides for an encounter with Jesus. Which follows from a perceived divinely authored program. Which follows on from an invitation of a friend to a wonderful weekend. The expectation keeps building all weekend and then the participant is invited to attest to it. Cursillo is certainly showing the hallmarks of cult-type activity.
6) There is no need for specific Cursillo follow-up groups. This reeks of an organisation not wanting to lose adherents and maintaining control in their lives. If these groups are needed, then it implies the “encounter” with Jesus was not real but an emotional experience. If peoples’ hearts were changed by the Holy Spirit, they would naturally seek out those who have been equally changed. The fact that Cursillo maintains the contact shows unnatural influence.
I am unconvinced that Eduardo Bonnin’s Cursillo is any different to the rest of them. But I do have one more question for the moment. Do participants become “members” of Cursillo after the weekend? At the end of WTE, participants become members without any regard to whether they want to or not. They are not asked, it just happens without their permission.
With regard to your question about when I was saved, yes the Holy Spirit did the work in me despite some of the methods used. I have had many years to ponder what happened and I can say definitely, the Lord could just as easily have saved me anywhere at any time. The event did not “provide for an encounter with Him”. And I wouldn’t promote others to go to the same meeting even if it was still going. The only thing that happened at that meeting that affected me spiritually (and it could have happened anywhere, anytime) was God showed me the truth of His gospel. No wishy washy “Jesus loves me” but the power of His act of salvation, the shedding of His blood to satisfy God’s wrath. (Romans 5:9).
I’m not saying you are trying to convince me of anything, I’m saying you are defending Cursillo and Eduardo Bonnin. You even ended with yet another quote from him. I’m getting the impression you are infatuated with him. That’s not healthy. Defend the gospel, not Cursillo. It’s worth so much more!!!
Speaking of which, The gospel is not “Jesus loves you” or “He is with you”. Nor is it Jesus Himself. It IS what He did as THE act of His love and what He achieved by doing it – that sacrifice of the shedding of His blood so we can have eternal life instead of eternal punishment. The ugly bit you keep avoiding. That’s the gospel. And I have still yet to read Eduardo Bonnin saying it. His definition falls way short.
Blessings,
Philip
Do participants become “members” of Cursillo after the weekend?
Unfortunately many feel they do. This is the one primary distortion that I am always pointing out. Thanks be to God, I have found that the Mallorcans, who were close to Eduardo all his life, also seem to constantly counter this problem. No doubt this is because it is a problem they have faced there too. It is the age old curse we carry of not being satisfied to be His unless we can somehow convince ourselves that we are better than someone else who id His. The fact that this is so with Cursillo is clear in all the untold number of spin offs and iterations all over the world. It is often the funniest thing.
I think that you are wise to call a bit of a pause to our personal discussion. I feel I have given what I have. In this dialog I really do believe that we are much closer to being of one mind than either of us can see. What you call ugly and negative is to me the most amazing and beautiful positive. That the creator so loves His creatures that He Himself becomes one of them to sacrifice Himself for their salvation, and gives Himself so totally that He is still with us moment by moment. For me it is the incomprehensible reality of Him “perfecting” His work that He loves so much.
Love, Charley
PS: My prayers are with you. I hope that you will find the right time and place to experience one of these weekends. Not to be changed, as I find your objections very welcome and helpful. Rather, I doubt you will be able to stop these movements, but the more you know about any small part of them the better able you will be to be of use to Him as He make it better. My last eight years has sent me ’round the world. What good it has done remains to be seen…but any of it is all Him.
Charley, I agree this discussion thread between yourself and Philip (and myself) has been going in circles a bit and become a bit repetitive. I do think it would be good to put it on pause for now – unless some new content or input can be made (perhaps by other readers that have a third or fourth or fifth point of view on things?) I want to remind our readers again, I hold the same view as Philip, i.e. I in no way approve of any iteration of the three day weekends. But I have tried to post comments from all sides for feedback, requiring only that the comments be polite and respectful. You and Philip have done a wonderful job of being polite and respectful. In fact, I would say the correspondence between you two has been an inspiration to me. I am currently looking for Facebook Groups and Pages, blogs, online forums, etc. where Protestants and Catholics are conversing in this respectful manner, where I can perhaps take part… Note – I do not support an interfaith mindset of “dialoguing”, compromising, finding a middle ground doctrinally. Rather, I am interested in politely and respectfully discussing/debating our differing doctrines. I am reminded of my grandfather, a missionary to Asia. He befriended some Buddhist monks and struck up a deep theological discussion with them. As it turns out, my grandfather knew the Buddhist writings better than they did, and won their respect because of this. Yet my grandfather stood his ground in defending his beliefs and sharing the gospel message of salvation. Because of my grandfather’s evangelistic missionary method, “speaking the Truth in love” to those of widely diverging beliefs, many were won to Christ. I believe that, of all the world’s religious leaders, Christ is the only true way to the Father – a way which will unfortunately be rejected by most resulting in Hell/eternal damnation/eternal torment… Another note regarding being polite and respectful. We can point out that human beings are not all brothers and sisters in Christ. But we should follow the Golden Rule, remembering we all are brothers and sisters in Adam… Charley, thanks again to you and Philip for all your polite and respectful correspondence. God bless you – Dave
Thank you Dave,
Your site is a real service to all those who wish to follow Christ. Ironically I am just finishing an amazing short book by Warren Angel, a Congregationalist minister from California. The book is a call for the same kind of dialog that you mention. It is titled “Yes We Can Love One Another.” There is a great difference between unity and uniformity. And that difference is rooted in love and humility in our mutual quest to find and follow the Truth.
Love,
Charley
Thanks for the lead, Charley. I Googled the book and was able to read a number of its pages under the Books tab. Sorry, but I differ with the general premise of the book – that Catholics and Protestants should be able to get along in “Christian love”. Several thoughts off the top of my head. Early on, Warren Angel states his belief that love is more important than doctrine. What doctrines specifically is he talking about? I believe that, for example, the “born again” Protestant doctrine regarding salvation trumps any call for “love and fellowship”. Yet I do love all my brothers and sisters in Adam. Paul achieved this balance well, I think. On the one hand, he admonished New Testament Christians to not fellowship with the works of darkness (or words to that effect). But on the other hand, Paul said to “speak the Truth in love” and “as much as lies within you live at peace with all men.” Note – I hope to expand on this comment – gotta run. God bless you Charley – Dave P.S.: I’m thinking of writing a blog critiquing Warren Angel’s book. Then we could correspond regarding the book, in the Comments section following my blog. Of course I’d have to read through the book first 🙂
Thanks,
I think being “born again” is the crucial encounter each person takes with love. Nicodemus being the prime example in the Gospels and 1 John being something of a culminating “doctrine” of its practical reality in the life of a follower of Jesus, and in His church.
Love, Charley
Well Philip,
I have done my best to use the clearest words I can to “spit it out”, though that does bring to mind a certain Revelation of Our Lord. Eduardo’s writings are not being hidden away by me…they are or have been obfuscated by those with agendas and “better” ideas. These are the ones who do the things we both protest. But they are also the ones who lately have been coming, kicking and screaming at times, to realize the truth. They have done this in innumerable “manuals” and by-laws, and articles of operation, all the normal “ways of the world.” It is quite interesting that these often arise with no by-line as though they have been handed down to us on stone tablets. Thanks be to God that now a days more and more people are coming, no doubt through the work of the Holy Spirit, to the truth and the simplicity of the Gospel, and yes the simple wisdom that Eduardo presented, namely pointing always to Jesus, and to His Gospel.
Eduardo never advised not reading the scripture. Quite the opposite!!! His witness was a clear call to BE the Gospel. Why do you glean from the fact that many who are illiterate really can know the Gospel when it is preached to them by word and witness that the Cursillo is bad?
There is, quite frankly, not one thing ugly, not one thing negative, not one spot or wrinkle in God, or in His Good News. He is with us. He really is. He is with us washing away every spot and ironing out every wrinkle. They are not the Gospel. They are what the Gospel is putting behind us.
Fear is the ultimate manipulator. I find no fear in Him. He is the Gospel. He is the Good News. Yes, at one time I was afraid of many things. And still, perhaps there are, at times things that give me pause, but then He is. It is that simple. He is. Yes at times I have caught sight of Him walking on the water, the stormy sea, and I have longed to put Him safely in my boat…but He will have none of it. And then I am there. I am where He has brought me. My fears have vanished as the spectres they are. There is no ugliness, not one tiny spot or wrinkle in Him. He has used many, many, things to bring me where I am with Him. Cursillo happens to be a part of it.
FYI, many millions of people have been brought along by the work He does, by His own choosing, through those He chooses and uses. His Gospel never changes. The goal is that it reach every person. That is the broad mission He has given to us. My tiny efforts will reach but a very small number, but that is OK. His plan is to reach everyone, and He knows that reaching a person happens when that person serves Him.
Perhaps there are people who need to be frightened to find Him. I am sorry that I can not help you with that or advise you in any way in that. I can tell you that all those who tried to frighten me into turning to Him were quite unsuccessful. And that includes yours truly, me, myself, and I. It was and still is love and those who loved me who through prayer, word, and witness helped me and loved me. These are the ones He used to reach my stoney heart and soften it a little. And He and some of them used the “tool” that is Cursillo at specific spots in my journey, that continues on today.
There is no fear in God or in Love. There is no ugliness. There is no negative. None of these things are Gospel. They are not good news. They are the bad news that the Gospel transcends.
So, Philip, either we are one or we are not. If we are in Him, we are one. Either of us can choose to go his own way, but His way is always unity. Niether one of us can separate the other from us. Since we are in Him. There is nothing that can separate us from Him, from His tender love. There is nothing that any one of us can do to stop Him from loving us. Be perfect as your Father is perfect. Some say it is impossible. I say that is exactly why it is the Good News, the Gospel. Its impossibility leaves me no option save embracing Him, as He takes me out of my ugliness and negativity into the wonderful place of peace, joy, freedom, and love…that He is preparing for all those who love Him.
My dear Philip, I do not have a clue why He made it this way….but I am persuaded that He has, and it is Him and Him alone Who can do such things.
Love, Charley
OK Philip,
I read the article. I know Francisco, I met him in Australia when he assumed the OMCC presidency. The Portuguese will host a “World Encounter” in Fatima the first weekend of May 2017. I have a hotel room reserved there. Come and join us. It would be a great place to ask some difficult questions.
As for the article, it was really great to see Francisco at the podium addressing the assembled cardinals, bishops, and other functionaries. When you consider the text with that in mind it truly is quite amazing, at least to me, a cradle Catholic! The Holy Spirit of God is so at work today! Yes, the final part of the text does take him out on a limb quite a bit, but you must keep firmly in mind the audience. The Cursillo he is speaking for is, in my opinion, quite a small slice of the real Cursillo that he is speaking about. Boil it down and there is nothing new in the Charism of the Cursillo and he quite certainly has the horse before the cart when he says the Charism is “based on the Fundamental Ideas”. FI is a text that has been recently published with much fan-fare as well as a great deal of disagreement among the drafters of it. In fact, if a Charism is a work of the Spirit of God then any man-made text no matter how well agreed on is at best a dim attempt to understand and make the Charism really operative in our lives.
I believe that that is exactly what the Foundational Charism is (I know you disagree, but just bear with me as a friend) It is what I believe, and every iteration of it (Tres Dias, Catholic Cursillo, Walk to Emmaus….) is one dim interpretation and attempt to realize it in certain places and at certain times. It is quite like the blind men and the elephant. I can tell you that my friend’s address is a quite radical departure from Catholic culture prior to Vatican II, which all too firmly lingers in our Holy Church to this day. Francisco has made a statement to all Cursillistas (and I thank you for making me aware of it. I intend to use it!) calling us back to one key aspect of Eduardo’s understanding. It is all about friendship, all about the person, and all about those faraway from Christ.
As for your comments, I feel quite sure it is mostly semantics where we differ and the meaning of words more than the basic truth. After all one very famous…or infamous US president once opined that his guilt or innocence hung on “What you mean by the word ‘is’.”
Love, Charley
By the way, if anyone is having trouble reading the latest series of posts, the original post by Robin was in response to one made in 2013. So they are up towards the beginning of the comments rather than the end.
Thanks Dave,
I did find Robin’s post, and see what Philip was concerned about. While I always answer any person’s questions, there are many times when it is simply impossible to express a proper answer, so I do find myself doing the best I can think of, saying a prayer, and, yes, advising folks to come and see. I do not see this as secrecy, but perhaps some folks do. Freedom is the key.
What was much better than seeing Robin’s post was that I saw a detailed one from Aaron Eshee from North Georgia Tres Dias. While I did not re-read the entire list of Essentials, I am very familiar with them. God’s grace, including experiences like Cursillo, is always freely given by God. This means that it can be gratefully accepted and shared. It also can be perverted and misused. No doubt, since Satan never takes a holiday, not even at Christmas, there will always be some distortions. The challenge, as always, is for those who are Christian leaders to always point everyone to the only one who is holy and perfect.
Love,
Charley
PS: Aaron’s posting was January of 2014 and also referenced Tres Dias’ website where the essentials are posted.
Anyone who hasn’t been shouldn’t knock it. Tres Dias is an amazing walk with Christians full of love and support. If you are a Christian of any denomination, it is for you, if you want to strengthen your relationship with God this is for you.
Hi Matthew,
While I respect you experienced a good time at Tres Dias, there are others who found the opposite. To say it is for anyone of any denomination or anyone wanting to strengthen their relationship with God is to ignore the fact that others were hurt by Tres Dias and other Cursillo type weekends.
Also the statement that anyone who hasn’t been shouldn’t knock it makes no sense to me. I haven’t been to a Jehovah Witness meeting of any sort yet I know their methods and teachings are wrong and speak against that group.
I’m sure you know of groups where you haven’t been but can see the danger and damage they have caused and so would warn others to stay away. Would it make sense for members of those groups to say you haven’t been to their meetings so you shouldn’t knock it?
I’m a Christian believer in the saving grace of Jesus dying on the cross In payment for my sins. I want to have a stronger relationship with God and I know for absolutely certain that Tres Dias is NOT for me. I also know that there are others out there who would do well to stay away simply because of the testimony of others who have been and found it terrible.
Thanks, Matthew, for your post. I am also someone who also has seen many wonderful instances of grace in the Cursillo and its offshoots, including Tres Dias. I made the Cursillo in 1978 and have been living the Cursillo ever since. One thing is also very evident to me. Philip speaks for people who have been hurt by people acting in the name of these movements. His stance is one of great service to us. It is our job, as leaders (which we learn about in the movement) to do all we can to help everyone better understand the movement, especially those who wish to act in its name.
I have found that going to the source, Eduardo Bonnin is the best way to do this. FEBA (fundacion Eduardo Bonnin Aguilo) and the resource center for the Catholic Cursillos in Christianity of Cannada (CCC), have many of Eduardo’s in English and more in Spanish. They both have excellent websites.
Critics are our most important aides in becoming better…something we can always do!
Love,
Charley
Greetings Charley. I just want to be clear again to my readers, I do not approve of the three day weekends in any form. I would mention that currently I have no problem with readers posting comments favoring the weekends – IF the comments are part of a back and forth debate. If, however, favorable comments are posted here merely because this is a (supposed) venue for endorsing/publicizing the three day weekends, then I may reach the point where I will not post “public relations” comments. Charley, I hope you catch my drift. No hard feelings personally – you have been very diplomatic and cordial when we have discussed our differences. Feel free to post comments regarding differences in theology anytime. I especially appreciated hearing your position on salvation and the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary. God bless you – Dave P.S.: Charley, I do appreciate your objectivity. Specifically, in various previous comments, you’ve qualified your endorsements by stating various problems you see in the current forms of the three day weekends. Hope to hear back from you soon – Dave
Thank you, Dave,
I can certainly agree that endorsing weekends and even “publicizing” them is a terrible idea. The original intent of the “weekends” was that they be a simple and direct way for friends to help their friends encounter the living Christ in freedom and truth. Movements where the leaders “get this” are always averse to public advertisement, etc. Much of the trouble that has been caused that discredits the movement stem from “promoters” who have a different agenda. One that always seems to promote themselves at the expense of others, notably Our Precious Savior, Himself!
Love,
Charley
Hi Charley,
I would just clarify your reference to me and who I speak for. I certainly know and know of those who have been hurt by Cursillo type weekends but I am not speaking for them as such. It is by their comments about their hurts and my own research into Cursillo weekends in general (Walk to Emmaus In particular) that has lead me to speak out against these weekends.
The methods used seem to be across the board, at least in principle, and are very similar to those used by cults to manipulate “love”. I have yet to see any evidence of anything different used by Eduardo Bonnin’s Cursillo. It would be nice for you to supply a detailed overview of the type of activities which take place at these weekends so we can see and judge for ourselves if what you claim is true.
What I do see when reading Eduardo Bonnin’s understanding of the gospel is a different gospel. He speaks of God’s love alright but he doesn’t seem to have had any comprehension of the necessity of the death of Jesus to pay the penalty for sin.
Without His death and resurrection there would be no salvation for anyone. The Good News, the Great News even, is that He did die so paying that penalty so that those who accept that once for all act of sacrifice will be saved from eternity in Hell and by His resurrection, share in eternal life with Him.
The fact that, at least in the writings I have read by him, Eduardo Bonnin never mentions this fact when he defines the gospel is very troublesome as I can only refer to it as a different gospel and therefore heresy.
Thanks again, Philip. Yes I think there is one thing we do disagree on. It is the “necessity” of Jesus’ horrific death in His sacrifice for us. I really do think that we are much closer to agreement than either of us understand. By way of clarification, and there is no intention here to discount your understanding in any way, my experience and understanding of God causes me to believe that He is far above me and what I can comprehend. To me He is capable of absolutely anything. Thus, to me, He operates with complete freedom, nothing is necessary for Him. Perhaps I am wrong, or even if I am correct, my logic could be faulty. Yet I simply believe that since He can do anything He wishes He could have easily with less than the blink of an eye solved any problem we created by our dismal and horrid behavior. In other words, He did not need to come, humbling Himself, and become en-fleshed in us and then lay down His life the way He did.
Now here is where we are definitely in agreement, and what I read of Eduardo’s wisdom he is also, the fact that He came and suffered and died…even when it was not necessary for Him….and did so because of His amazing gratuitous love and mercy for us, makes this event the central reality of His gracious Good News for us. But there is much more, and this is where the authentic Cursillo aims its efforts, He rose again and is with us, close and personal, in His Holy Spirit, right now and all the time. “God” is an infinitely amazing reality that is far beyond, unavailable, to men. Jesus is God available real and concrete. That is the Good News that “passeth understanding.” At least to me.
I applaud you for your firm determination to speak out for the truth. I do hope and pray that you can accept my humble effort to do the same, and in part, to do so by helping to go deeper into this mystery myself and by urging those who are using the method of the Cursillo not to forget its singular aim, that on the day of judgment there will be more souls on the right hand.
Love,
Charley
Charley, not to be rude, but I couldn’t disagree with you more (in your two statements that Jesus did not need to come and suffer and die). On the contrary, the Bible refers repeatedly to Jesus’ sacrificial death (and our believing, repenting and accepting this) being the only way for any human being to get to Heaven. God planned for Calvary from the fall of mankind. (Note the first animal sacrifice early on, in the account of Cain and Abel; animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ being a penal substitute on Calvary.) And God didn’t make a Plan B for man’s salvation – Christ HAD to die on the cross for anyone to be saved. I believe Calvary is the crux of all human history – everything before leads up to it, and everything since looks back to it. Listen to John the Baptist’s words when he saw his cousin Jesus: “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world”… Speaking of views of salvation/the atonement, I found a very informative article which compares the Catholic view with the Reformed view – fascinating: http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/04/catholic-and-reformed-conceptions-of-the-atonement/ Although I must say, the Catholic interpretation of the Reformed doctrine is a gross distortion/misinterpretation… The Bible is filled with passages from cover to cover teaching that Jesus died as a penal substitute, that God the Father in essence laid our sins on His Son. And yes, God’s wrath fell on His Son. When Jesus died bearing our sins, the Father could not bear to look upon sin, and thus turned His back on His Son. Which is why Jesus cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Isaiah says, “God laid on Him the iniquity of us all, and by His stripes we are healed.” It boggles my mind, how Catholics can ignore the multitude of passages that refer to a “penal substitute” atonement. Instead, if I understand the Catholic doctrine correctly, Catholics teach that God’s wrath never fell on His Son, thus Jesus WAS NOT a penal substitute for our sins (this doctrine is described in the afore-mentioned link). Not to gang up on you Charley, but I think Philip would agree with me here – the Catholic view of the atonement as developed by the Church Fathers, etc. is way off track from what the Bible teaches from cover to cover. Well I’ll plan to correspond more later – I gotta go get some zzzzzz’s. God bless you – Dave
Hi Dave,
Yes, I would be in full agreement with you on the atonement. It’s this that makes us brothers in Christ. There may be some stuff on which we would disagree but the essential one is bang on.
I find it troublesome that many Christians who would also agree with us on the atonement go to these Cursillo weekends and find nothing wrong with the teaching in them. This and the secrecy is what led me to research the methods to understand how this could happen and that’s when I discovered that the methods are very manipulative. They have the effect of focussing people on God’s love instead of the ultimate act of that love. Using these methods seems to be how the true gospel gets pushed aside and the false gospel of God’s love and salvation without atonement takes over.
There’s no doubt in my mind that this false teaching is infiltrating the body of Christ to the extent that salvation is understood as being achieved by “following Jesus” with no atoning sacrifice, that merely knowing God’s love and following Jesus saves people. This is wrong.
Ultimately, God is in control so I do trust He will keep His church but this may be a time of weeding out rather than corrupting. All I know is that He wants us to speak against false teaching, even though it can be unpopular.
Blessings,
Philip
Hi Charley,
Thanks for the reply. Your first paragraph shows how far apart we actually are. On the necessity of Jesus to die for our salvation, I say this is what is necessary for us, not God. Saying that nothing is necessary for God misses the point.
True He does not “need” anything but WE need His intervention on our behalf for us to be saved. Without His intervention our sin condemns us for eternity. His intervention, the one He CHOSE, as opposed to He “needed”, was that Jesus should come to earth in the flesh and die a sinners death to pay our penalty and those who accept will be saved.
God doesn’t need anything, not even us. So He didn’t “need” to send Jesus to die, but if He didn’t, we would not be saved. We are the ones in need and Jesus’ death and resurrection fulfils that need IF we accept it.This is a major distinction and I hope you can see it.
This salvation by substitutionary sacrifice once for all in Jesus’ death and resurrection is God’s way of salvation. It is His choice, not ours. We need, He chooses. For us to reject His choice for our salvation is to reject Him. We then condemn ourselves by our own choice.
Jesus’ death and resurrection was absolutely necessary for us to be saved. That is what God chose to do and if we don’t like it, we can’t do anything to change it. We can only be saved by accepting His death was done as the one and only sacrifice for the payment of the penalty for sin BY GOD’S CHOICE.
I really hope and pray you can understand and accept this. It is the very act of God’s love and to reject it is to reject His love. If you know you are loved by God, this is true. But if you, by thinking His love will save you, reject His choice of how you can be saved, then that is deception. It ultimately rejects His love.
I really hope and pray you can take this next step and accept His choice for your need.
Blessings,
Philip
Thanks again Philip,
And I am so glad to let you know that I do accept Him and His love for me. This is why I think we are so very close to one mind. The difficulty that I do have is living this acceptance. It seems clear that since He advised us to be perfect as Our Father is perfect and also asked us to love one another as He does His sacrifice is the perfect object lesson in how to live. I do try, and now and then, with His help only, I think I am able to live a little closer to this wonderful ideal. And this is only remotely possible for me because I am so certain, so persuaded, that He does love me. While I do feel that since He is God and so much above me in knowing what to do He could have found other ways to save us; however, I am quite certain that the way He chose, a way of perfect humility, must be the absolute best way possible. If there were a better way He would have chosen it…because He loves me so much!
Love,
Charley
Hi charley,
No I’m afraid we are not close at all. Our views of salvation are polar opposites. Yes He loves you and me and all the peoples of the world but He has sent Jesus to suffer and die in payment for our sins. In no way is it possible to live a life good enough so that God absolves anyone of sin.
God’s love is unconditional but salvation is not. We can only receive salvation IF we accept His ultimate act of love. To do this we MUST accept the fact that Jesus took the penalty of our sin on Himself by suffering and dying. We cannot live a good enough life to attain it, only He did. And by dying, He who is without sin came and died a sinners death to pay that penalty.
A way of perfect humility is the way He chose true enough, but that humility meant taking the penalty of sin on Himself when He did not deserve it. The humility that saves us is His and His alone. His death as payment for sin is the ultimate humility and there is no way we could take that penalty and have eternal life. Only He could, and did, do it for us.
Rejecting this is to reject His love. You may think you are accepting His love but you are not. This is His ultimate act of love. He (Jesus) lays down His life so that you can be saved and you say no, that’s not right.
He chose not just the best way to save us, but the ONLY way. He didn’t need to do it but He did it because of His love for us and it was the ONLY way. Only a sinless person can pay the penalty of sin to set a person free. Jesus’ death was and is the only way anyone can be saved.
The whole idea of Israel sacrificing a pure and blameless animal for the remission of sins was a temporary foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice of the only sinless and blameless and pure person who ever lived on earth to be a once for all sacrifice for the remission of sins. But we must accept that that is what it is in order to be saved.
Just as Israel had to accept that the sacrificial animal was necessary as a temporary substitute sacrifice for sin, we must accept Jesus’ death was and is the once for all sacrifice. If this is not true, then Jesus’ death was useless and has no meaning. If people knowing and living in God’s love alone was all that was necessary, do you really think He would have allowed Jesus to die?
Jesus is not called the Lamb of God because He was meek and mild and humble, but because he is the ultimate lamb sacrifice. Only that act saves anyone and only by His resurrection can anyone have eternal life with the Father.
So Charley, unless you accept this one fact as truth, you have not accepted His love where it really matters and we are as far apart as anyone, at least regarding the gospel. And it’s the definition of the gospel which truly matters above all else. If we can’t agree on it, and I don’t with your assessment of it, then we are not brothers in Christ.
You may be convinced we are so close but it doesn’t add up when it comes to scripture. What I see there points me to Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. You say that’s not so but I can see otherwise.
The Bible in its completeness points to this one act – that Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin. As Dave has said, everything before leads up to it, everything since looks back to it.
Blessings,
Philip
Pray for me Philip,
As I mentioned I do accept His wonderful and gracious gift, and I thank Him every day in every way I can think of, but still I fall short of being as grateful as even I wish. Thus His mercy constantly amazes me. I think that a prisoner on death row if he received a pardon and was freed through the actions of someone on the outside, would be eternally grateful for it. I think he would be grateful to that person and I think it would change his life. That man is me! Pray that I can understand why you do not think that I agree with you about this. I am Catholic because of my personal history. It is the history that I believe He has brought me through, for my own good, because He loves me. Is the doctrine of the Catholic Church the whole TRUTH? I do not think so. Is the doctrine of any Church the whole truth? I don’t think so.
I also concur with each of the statements you made about your understanding of Jesus and the Paschal Mystery. But I do personally think that there is much, much more to it all. Mare than any one of us or even all of us together can ever grasp. He is the Truth. He alone is God.
As much as I enjoy these discussions, I think we need to give it another little rest, at least between the two of us,…and pray, pray, pray. He knows the way! As always, you remain in my prayers.
love,
Charley
Hi Charley,
Yes I will finish here for the moment. I do pray for you because I find it disturbing that you talk so much of God’s love yet fail to see how His love works in the death of Jesus.
To use your analogy, rather than the prisoner being freed by someone on the outside, the prisoner is freed by the judge. He is freed by the judge because the judge has stepped down from His seat and taken the prisoner’s place in the dock to receive the punishment He sentenced the prisoner to.
If the prisoner chooses not to accept the actions of the judge, he will never go free.
You say you accept His wonderful and gracious gift but that gift is the death of Jesus to pay the price you and I deserve. This is something which you have stated you do not accept. If I’m wrong in that understanding in what you said, please tell me but from your previous statements, it is very clear that you reject the idea that Jesus had to die for our salvation.
So yes, I will continue to pray for you that this truth, and it is TRUTH, will be revealed to you by the Holy Spirit.
As far as Cursillo is concerned, it’s obvious to me that the gospel preached there is a false gospel – one which denies the necessary sacrifice of Jesus to pay the penalty of sin.
Blessings,
Philip
Greetings Charley. I realize these comments may be a bit out of sequence. Hopefully my comment here appears in an order that seems logical. To reiterate Philips’s points, there is a HUGE gap between born again Protestant doctrine and Catholic doctrine. Why am I making such a big deal of this, in regards to the three day weekends? Because many liberal Protestant denominations identify closely with the practices of Catholicism (and it appears that many of the three day weekends are hosted by liberal Protestant denominations – few conservative). Following is a link which details the differences between Protestants and Catholics. The link describes and critiques an interfaith accord called ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics together): http://web.archive.org/web/20160612134234/http://www.gty.org/resources/Articles/A149/Evangelicals-and-Catholics-Together I’m providing this link for further clarification of doctrinal differences. God bless you – Dave
Thank you so much, Dave,
I will certainly review the link, I just posted it to my “favorites” tab. One statement caught my eye, “Unity with Roman Catholicism is not a worthy goal if it means sacrificing the truth.” I would go a little further and, in ancient “Catholic” parlance suggest that “not a worthy goal” could be replaced with “anathema.”
What is the truth? It is Pilate’s fundamental question, and it is the central core of any sane approach to understanding Our Father. He is the truth. The founder of Cursillo, Eduardo Bonnin, also railed against “striving for unity” at all costs. He pointed out that in Jesus’ great final prayer as per John the Evangelist, Jesus asked our Father to graciously grant us unity. Then He turned to the disciples and commanded them to love one another! Eduardo took this to mean that we should concentrate on loving one another to make it easier for Our Father to make us one, which is His gracious gift, and can be given by Him only.
Just so you understand me. I am not intent on establishing or promoting or defending any doctrine or religion, much less any movement. My singular aim is to promote love for each other. This means, to me, acceptance and openness to one another. It means care and concern for one another. Most of all it means prayer, constant prayer, for one another. I do not pray for others to change their minds, but for Him to give me a more humble open and loving mind. I am so very appreciative of the passion that folks have for the truth, but am also aware that if you and I disagree on some important matter we cannot both be correct. It just seems likely, from my life experience and all that I have studied, that it is extremely likely that neither of us is correct. In the end He is the Truth. I believe that it is in embracing Him as fully as we can, in the Truth we think we can grasp, that we will eventually find we are embracing one another. In the end that is what I think He died for us to see, and in seeing to embrace, and in embracing to live together as brothers and sisters. In the end I am persuaded that in His Kingdom there are no denominations, in fact there are no other nations at all. There is only one NAME!
Love,
Charley
I just finished my weekend of DeColors. I wanted to leave after the first day and now after reading your article I know why. They kept trying to convince us that it was nor a cult, but I wondered why they would even have to say that! The longer I was there I wondered what I had gotten myself into. All of the secrecy was keeping me off balance and they would keep us in meetings for hours on end. I was not only exhausted the entire time, but was also fed candy and junk food at all times. I have had experience with cults before and this sure had all the makings of one. I didn’t participate in the agape meal and all of the sacrament stuff and I was literally called in to talk with the leaders and clergy and told that I must participate in all events. Until I agreed that I would they would not let me leave the meeting. I definitely saw the evil underbelly of the organization. The way people began acting after being subjected to all of the talks, candy , emotionalism, lack of sleep and not knowing what time it was pathetic. We were encouraged to act like little kids. The worst thing I experienced though was when one of the pastors even stated during one of his talks that the Bible contradicts itself! When I asked him if he could give me an example he just became very rude and said he would not give me one that day and most likely would not at all.) After that I began to see things in a different light and was most uncomfortable the rest of the weekend. Everything is kept a secret, even who are candidates and who are not. You beomed a part of their secret society where you are taught different words that you don’t even really know what they mean given objects with hidden meanings and are forced to stand together and sway while singing the same songs over and over. I didn’t say the come holy spirit prayers and song that they did before each and every talk. It just felt wrong, but when I read that it is what catholics say I was really glad I didn’t say those things.I have never been so glad to get home again in my life! I hope people read this and decide before its too late to never go to a DeColors weekend.
Thanks for sharing, Victoria. I found additional critiques of the weekend by Googling “DeColores” and “De Colores”. I hope to add more to my comment later (it’s late here). God bless you – Dave
Thank you so much, Victoria, for sharing your story. It must have been painful for you to do so. I wish every mis-guided “leader” of any of the versions of this movement could read your story and those that are so similar. The Cursillo was intended to “make it possible for persons to BE Christian. There is certainly nothing Christian about how you were treated.
As one who has spent many years trying to point out the same thing to people who are in control of the “Movement” my prayers are with you. You are certainly one person whose 4th day will be far better than the three days of the “weekend.”
Love, Charley
Charley, thanks for your response to Victoria. Not to be rude, but your brief reply will be sufficient. I.e. if you follow up your brief comment with further explanation of your position, I will probably not post your follow up comment – instead referring readers to your previous detailed posts and the websites you mentioned. (A P.S. to our readers: Charley’s Cursillo website is he-is-love.com ) You’ve already stated your position (with which I disagree) very well. Again I’m not trying to be rude – I’m just trying to make this comment process more efficient by avoiding additional repeated postings of similar comments. BTW, you probably guessed the following already: I am very open to more readers’ critiques of the Three Day Weekends. There are already many, many Internet articles for the other side (i.e. favoring the Three Day Weekends). Feel free to make more comments leaving out the topic of Three Day Weekends but discussing the Catholic view of salvation, baptismal regeneration, etc. I would welcome the chance to again present the Protestant gospel, the Protestant “way of salvation”. I think it’s just your explanation of the Three Day Weekends that has become a bit too repetitive. No hard feelings I hope. God bless you – Dave
Hi Victoria, you confirm so much of the cult-like nature of Cursillo. Much of this I have found through research since I have never attended any Cursillo weekends so it’s very helpful to read personal experiences such as yours.
I notice Charley used the term “4th day” in his reply to you. I’m interested to know if this term would be included in your statement that “you are taught different words that you don’t even really know what they mean”.
Cursillo based weekends use this term to mean the rest of your life AFTER your Cursillo. Before researching Cursillo, I heard the term mentioned in relation to Walk to Emmaus, another Cursillo based event, and had to figure out what it meant. Only Cursillo based weekends use it in this fashion which for me added to the cult-like nature of these weekends.
Blessings, Philip
Philip, I see our comments have gotten mixed up a bit. Charley’s response to Victoria says “in reply to davemosher”. Then your response to Victoria says “in reply to Charles Green”. I’m not sure how to straighten this out, so I’ll leave this sequencing as is. I wish WordPress would make this comment process simpler. God bless you all – Dave
Thanks Dave. Yes I see where I went wrong. My fault entirely. I clicked the button on the last post I saw which happened to be Charley’s. I should have used Victoria’s post when I replied. Sorry for the confusion.
Blessings,
Philip
Charley, I see our comments have gotten mixed up a bit. Your response to Victoria says “in reply to davemosher”. Then Philip’s response to Victoria says “in reply to Charles Green”. I’m not sure how to straighten this out, so I’ll leave this sequencing as is. I wish WordPress would make this comment process simpler. God bless you all – Dave
Victoria, there are several responses to your comment. One is from Charles Green, addressed “in reply to davemosher”. The other is from Philip, addressed “in reply to Charles Green”. Sorry for the confusion – The Comment feature in WordPress can get complex and messy. God bless you – Dave
If you have seen me you have seen the father said Jesus to his disciples.
The disciples knew Jesuh was the son of God. Even the Jews were waiting for the Messiah but wouldn’t have it that Jesus was he.
In the beginning (Genesis and John) reveal he Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
God is unfathomable and therefore you will never undestand this until you stop leaning to your own understanding. That was a quick lesson – when I stopped trying to work this out and accepted it I had no problem with it ever after. I took God at his word.
The first bible being Catholic doesn’t make it right and the early church fathers came together to produce the 66 books of the bible. It’s taken me ages (hours and minutes) to read about the suspicions that degraded such a move of the Holy Spirit called Tres Dias and others names.
I was already born again baptised in the spirit and speaking in tongues when I was invited to be a prison chaplain. I had got saved like one reader said she had by asking God to come into my life or at least give me a sign as I did, not know him at 49 I got back to saying the Lord’s Prayer every night. As you might guess my life in the world had become a mess without God in it.
Next morning I fought with a gunman got knocked about by his gang – but at the end of this session I knew that I knew that I knew that there was a God.
Bear with me I am now 81 and my life has changed to one of reaching people I have three meetings next week. Where I will share my story.
However I was booked to go to a Tres Dias. I didn’t think I needed anything else I had it all. I had been saved about 7 years and had a spell at bible school whilst running a Full Gospel Business chapter and a prison ministry. My boss the senior chaplain assured me I could not go on to the new venture in the prison if I didn’t. Off I went, and my wife, to Rotherham for a Tres Dias. At the end of all that has been described I don’t know what happened but I had taken another big step forward. I would have said forget it if I had known, but I have learned you can never stop learning God doesn’t give it to you all at once. I was so different on the 4th day.
All you have to be is OPEN MINDED to all that takes place. Do everything you are asked as it is carefully timetabled and you come out a new person. Everyone is free to think what they like about what they hear or see and meditate on it.
However the next step out of all this catholic root comes Kairos it had gone from Spain as Cursillo and into S American prisons with amazing results. Filtered through USA prisons and then into UK and I visited prisoners with my chaplain and a governor on the first Kairos in the Verne where I then spent 3 months daily with prisoners to see the transformation. By the way I did read one mention of Bonnin getting the inspiration from the Holy Spirit, but not about getting rejected by the Catholic Church to start with and it successfully bringing the broken nation of Spain back together after the Spanish Civil war where neighbour fought against neighbour.
It was a total act of reconciliation that worked through the various topics of the programme. Kairos means Gods special time and many unsaved make a declaration giving their lives to God. Had I not gone to a Tres Dias I would not have understood the change in lives which it brought about. A prison warden would easily say that is not the Joe Bloggs that I know.
Then we would build up a programme which I was privileged to call Kainos meaning renewed.
One last note there were people on my TD that unbelievably did not believe in God, and also from other denominations – no cults.
But none of us were acceptable to go on a Cursillo unless Catholic or High Anglican.
My Mother in law bless her soul would not accept being my being born again or that speaking in tongues was for today when she was alive – Being High church she didn’t literally believe every word of the bible – ‘Who is God that he should lie’ – but she came back off a Cursillo one year with a different heart.
I have shared my testimony in Kuala Lumpur this year USA, and Lithuania.
South Africa, Latvia, Ukraine, St Petersburg and UK & Ireland in earlier years.
If you don’t have the Holy Spirit you will never understand the bible fully.
In 1991 the late Dick Mills said to me in a crowded room in Orlando at a world convention, Terry, God is going to use you for sump’n special.
God is good all the time, all the time God is good.
Every blessing, Terry
Thanks for your comments, Terry. Unlike yourself, I cannot endorse the Three Day Weekends in any format. However, I do appreciate your sharing your life experiences. And I have great respect for anyone 81 years old (I think we should show more respect for our elders). God bless you – Dave
Thanks Dave. Just to put the record straight it is not my life story but a bit about the last 30 years in which I have been a born again christian. Remember I have been on many of these as a team member and never seen anything that conflicts with my christianity. I understand John 3 v 16 fully.
I have seen prisoners from many nations hugging and forgiving one another after these weekends in prisons. The conflict comes through the eucharist. Once upon a time catholics took the eucharist just like others do. So I cannot comment on others. Tres Dias and Kairos. Kairos took over from Cursillo in USA prisons.
Every blessing, I think the apostasy comes from criticising everyone who kn ows what God can do. Some of it is as one guy said paranoia and many other robes things that have not been shed – defintely not robes of righteousness.
God bless.
Terry, various readers have addressed various concerns with the Three Day Weekends. Personally, I would have no problem with retreats based specifically on born again Protestant doctrine, with born again Protestant teachings and practices, originated by born again Protestant Christians. I don’t know of any Three Day Weekends which are specifically born again Protestant. Assuming such is the case (that none are specifically born again Protestant weekends), they should advertise themselves for what they are: mainline/liberal Protestant, Catholic, and/or ecumenical… Other red flags for me: 1) the emphasis on secrecy, and 2) the fact that “candidates” have to be invited by others who have attended. Just a few observations. I have not attended any of these Three Day Weekends – nor do I intend to. I think it’s best to run the other way. In spite of positive reviews, I have heard too many negative comments from individuals who have attended… BTW would you say the Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship Intl. is ecumenical today? If so, I cannot recommend the FGBMFI. I was shocked by this quote regarding its history: “By 1961 FGBMFI had over 300 chapters and almost 100,000 members. The decade of the 1960s were, if anything, an even more remarkable period for the organization. Buoyed by the spread of the charismatic movement FGBMFI attracted tens of thousands of supporters from mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic backgrounds. …” Source: http://fgbmfi.net/fgbmfi-about/fgbmfi-founder-demos-shakarian/ I believe many born again Protestants have been led astray doctrinally by ecumenical events. Hope that helps you understand my viewpoint. God bless you – Dave P.S.: I have attended various Pentecostal churches, mostly Assemblies of God, and appreciate “old fashioned” Pentecostal doctrines (as well as “old fashioned” Wesleyan Holiness doctrines, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist doctrines, etc.) I would say the late David Wilkerson is one of my favorite “old fashioned” Pentecostals (but I discovered recently that at times he spoke favorably of so-called born again charismatic Catholics). BTW, like Bro. Wilkerson, I believe there are many false teachings scattered among today’s Pentecostals. Such as the New Apostolic Reformation, the Word of Faith movement, Dominionism, Postmodernism (Emerging and Emergent churches), seeker sensitive churches, contemplative prayer, etc.
Thanks so much, Dave. I made the Cursillo in 1978 and ever since that time I have been doing everything I can think of, that is friendly and that I consider appropriate to do as a born-again Catholic, to get folks to stop the absurdity of trying to manipulate others with secrecy and all those other things you object to. He is love. Yes, lovers have secrets. But not from those they truly love!!!
Love, Charley
PS: I tried the link but my security software flagged it as a “risky site”. I think I’ll take your good advice and avoid it!!!
Charley there is nothing wrong with my website. I use Avast. It does not refer to 3 day events just what I do full time, serving God in the FGB. I just publsh our meetings and the prophecies. I am going to a meeting in Gravend tonight as
Regional Director to listen to a world power lifting champion share how he got involved in crime and how he goes round the world now sharing how not to ruin the body that God gave you and get everlasting life.
Didn’t you ask God if you should or should not go on my website? Did you takes man’s advice? You know Dave runs from anything that is not protestant that is his confession. I run from nothing God tells me to do.
Be blessed Charley, yours in the grace of God.
Terry
Terry, are you saying you approve of teachings that are not Protestant? Yes, I say run from false teachings. Teachings that are not Protestant are false teachings – because only Protestants truly teach that one must be born again (John Chapter 3). Therefore, yes, I say run from anything that is not Protestant… I used to accept the possibility that many Catholics were truly born again. But that changed when I started studying Catholic doctrine. What do Catholics teach? For one, they believe in baptismal regeneration. For another thing, Catholics strongly oppose the Five Solas, which I believe are very biblical and form the core of the Protestant Reformation. I see no middle ground – I believe Protestants who condone Catholic teachings (and accept Catholics as born again Christians) are compromising Protestant Reformation doctrine. And – I consider Catholicism as having many cultic teachings. So a Catholic who becomes born again should leave Catholicism -just as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses who become born again should leave their cults. I could go on, but I doubt that either of us are going to persuade the other. So basically I’m just clarifying my doctrinal position regarding running from non-Protestant teachings. BTW thank you for all comments so far – even if I don’t agree on various points. And I always appreciate civil conversations like this 🙂. God bless you – Dave
Dave,
I applaud your wonderful attitude as the host of this blog. It is such a kerygmatic proclamation of the “one thing that matters” that our precious savior taught us, “Love God and love your neighbor.” Thank you for all you are doing!!!
Love, Charley Green
God bless you Terry. I hope you come to Houston, Texas, sometime to share your testimony. I would love to hear it!!!
Also, most folks do not know that Eduardo Bonnin had a special personal “ministry” to prisoners. He was their friend. As a young child he would visit prisoners with his grandfather. Some of his friends have told me that when in Palma he reserved one day every week to visit friends in the prison and was friends with many after their release. To him it was not a “ministry.” He was simply visiting friends, friends who he said taught him much more about faith and following Christ than many who claimed to be Christians.
Love,
Charley
Thanks Charley. You are so right Charley it is not a ministry but a way of life. We did this many years ago only I took my daughter. She is now a school teacher bless her and she has parents evening tonight. Tonight we are going to hear an old friend speak. LOL. He us younger than me but been a BAC many more years than I have. His name Ken Stallard. I brought him to ‘my’ prison one Friday as a treat for the inmates as I was in FGB then and still am.
Imagine how gob smacked I was when as soon as I opened the door they said in almost one voice, “Why its the Jesus man”. Ken used to get called out to pray for drug addicts who had OD’d in a place called Oxford, many he prayed for came back to life over the years. Maybe over 150 miles from my prison.
He knelt down and prayed with every prisoner that night before leaving.
Charley bless you we have to change this world. Check the website there is a word over me since 2008.
Terry. DV
Hmmm….Which website. Did you know that Eduardo Bonnin died in Feb 2008. November of 2008 is when I was led back into the organized Cursillo movement in the USA after 25 years. We do not have to change a thing. He is the one who changes all things. We just need to pray, pray, pray, and not get in His way, and let Him use us as He chooses. He is making all things new…again!
Love, Charley
Charley, I think this is the website Terry referred to: http://fgb-medway.org.uk/ It appears as a link to the left of his comments. God bless you – Dave
Thanks again, Dave,
The above link worked fine. I am planning a trip to Europe next year. I will try to look Terry up. BTW, I have not been able to verify any of this, but some friends in Northern Ireland have indicated that Cursillo and Tres Dias both were very helpful in ending the “troubles” there. Well, I suppose they are not yet ended, but things seem to have gotten better.
Charley
Charley, great things are happening in Ireland even now outside of FGB. I will be going with my wife and President on the 17th for the UK & Ireland FGB Convention in Dublin. I should mention that I am the Regional Director for SE UK and a representative of the UK Council.
I got saved in an AOG in Jax, Florida in 1986. The website I put down is a site I maintain about FGB and some of the pics from past occasions if you wait a little on the Home page. I like the song Arise so if it not on automatic click on it under a bit about me for the Thursday night dinner. I don’t know anything about the death of Edwardo Bonnin. I am full time FGB. I tried tracking down the SE UK Tres Dias to no avail. I still have my bag of palanka hanging on my office door and my wooden cross with coloured knitted necklace, des colores.
I was chief servant at one trg session and did the Ideals talk. In prisons on Kairos a Spiritual Advisor on most occasions and then the prayer man in a separate cabin away from the sessions. My friend Jim Epley from Jax, wrote an epic moment on a kairos when the ‘tush hog’, as hard as nails broke down in tears and gave his life to Jesus when he read the card – a little girl had writtern to him telling him she loved him. Jim was an ex con himself and ex mafia before going back into prisons. Jim is one year older than me. It was Jims daughter by the way now married and living in UK.
We serve an amazing God.
The new UK & Ireland website is fgbuk.org I written a bit about it all started for me in the Welcome to the Sourh East FGB.
God bless you. God is my provider.
Terry
Comments are currently “partially” closed on the Tres Dias blog, while I do some offline research and correspondence. We are very open to publishing comments critiquing Tres Dias and other three day weekends. On the other hand, comments supporting Tres Dias and other three day weekends will be considered for publication on a case by case basis. All readers may still contact each other and correspond with each other, via the email addresses provided to the left of each comment. Thank you for your understanding – Dave
I just attend a weekend and I left early. I have been in ministry for about 6 years now and all I have to say is that the focus is more on a lovely dovey feeling then Jesus. I am very concerned about these movments for starters the talks are given by what they call lay people who have no biblical foundation. It’s the blind leading the blind. The Spirtual leaders don’t warn people about taking of communion. Paul warns us in 1 Corinthians 11 that to take of communion in an unworthy manner can cause you to be sick and even die. Some of these individuals are not even saved but are partaking in communion. The whole weekend reeked of catholicism and I even received a paper that said that the Roman Catholic Church was the only true church and the only church by which a person can be saved. The whole weekend is extremely deceptive and very dangerous we need to tell leaders and pastors to warn other members of the church.